iam not sure about the law where your at but i know if i make repairs without owners approval or signing the work order stating he will pay for the repairs then the company (dealer) has to eat it this also goes for warrenty work. i can not do warrenty with out permission it sounds like your out $70.00, and a couple days pay when you get to go to court

 

This whole story stinks. I really doubt that all the facts have been told. Remember, the only side of the story is coming from Twisted99. Not that I don't believe him, but it's one-sided.

 

I don't know that this is relevent or not, but I feel like I ought to say it.
When you do a modification on the truck, and something breaks, and it's related, even what seems a little bit, you're gonna lose.

I'm not saying it's right, though I often think it is, I'm just saying that it is.
In a warranty dispute, we're talking about a civil matter, and the standard of proof is what lawyers call "preponderence of evidence" which means "more likley this than that", a long way from "beyond a reasonable doubt" used for criminal matters. Now look at the case Ford has on those terms. They designed and built it, aside from buildings full of lawyers they also have buildings full of engineers, they can get any manner of slaried and hourly warranty analysts to come up with any number of situations about why something failed, why they didn't build it the way you moidified in the first place etc...

Say for a moment that Ford admits that 95% of the time, a chip won't cause you to blow a rod, but they can also positively establish that the other 5% of the time it will, knowing that, and knowing that 5% failure is unaaceptabe for a mass produced product, they decided to tune the engine down to the way it was sold. All they have to "prove" in this case would be that they didn't do it that way becuase of the 5% figure, they can admit that 95% of the time it's fine and still win on the facts. Moss Magnenson or not, in testimony they can bring in the engineers, books of engineering studies, the paperwork from every test they ever did, every warranty claim they've ever had and just bury you in what they know about it, which would surprise you, trust me, they have an incredible amount of data. And you have.... well, if you're extremely lucky, whoever made the part will defend it, but I've never heard of that actually happening, they more than likely pay the bill before they'd go to court over it. Now the real clever bit is if they do, Ford will discover them to death, and you can bet that before it came to trial, they'd have every little bit of data they could find that in effect counters every thing your witness can say to defend the part, count on it. So, now based on the preponderence of evidence, who do you think will win?

The room full of lawyers is nice to have, but if by some miracle it ever came to court, it's the engineering data that would beat you.

G

 

A few important points:

Fords "Deep Pockets"

Dividend Payouts:
Jun-29-00 $1.74
Apr-30-03 $0.10 (same for over a year)

Stock Price:
3 years ago: $48.56
Today: $10.50

Uh..... watch out:
"According to Saul Rubin, the analyst, Chapter 11 is not around the corner, but not out of the question for Ford..." (GM and Daimler are in there too)
Ch. 11

Ford: Will Miss Pricing Targets for 2003
(New Lightnings/Cobra's at a dealer around here both had $5,500 ADM markups?!?! Sorry, still in disbelief)
Sales dropped 7% last month, they axed the ugly thunderbird

L.A. families sue Ford, Continental in rollover

Remember the $290 mill awarded to that bronco rollover guy? Remember Ford being so deep in their own sh*t they almost drowned because of the Firestone burnouts? Oh, and lest we not forget N.Y. Senator Wants Crown Victoria Probe


:o Finally! The point! Ford's deep pocket's are wearing thin, and they won't be hiring any $1,000 an hour lawyers. Or anything as large as a "legal team" I think was mentioned. Next, they look like hell because they never fixed anything. Nothing like a NY cop burning, soccer mom projected out the sunroof due to a rollover kinda company, oh yeah, because the recalls are too much. (See fight club? Price of Recall must be less than Number of Defects * Avg. Out of Court settlement)

Uh..... I guess I'm done.
Oh yeah, you can always go all out! Get every person who had their warranty wrongfully denied by Ford in a class action suit. The media coverage possibilities would probabley make them pay an out of court settlement (as they are apparently doing whatever they can do to sell their cars)

 

01 XLT Sport

If there is a piece of paper that "requires" a signature then the "verbal" consent don't mean *****. Looks like the dealer is screwed...

Ill admit that I'm no lawyer, but where did you get this information regarding contract law? Classes that I have taken and situations I have been involved in, have always shown verbal contracts to be every bit as binding as a written contract. It varies from state to state as to what kind of contracts are required to be binding in certain situations, but very few (if any) require service contracts to be in writing. Written contracts are usually the best because they usually spell out what is required by each party, but it doesn't mean that a verbal contract can't be binding.

 

My penny's worth: Mr Twisted has been truthful in all his previous posts saying that he had mods and a chip and that he was still going to get Ford to pay for it. That statement in itself is just wrong, his truck blew up cause he pushed it beyond what it was designed for. Twisted has gone back and deleted alot of his posts where he listed mods and HP/TQ numbers because he knows he is wrong,in other posts he has stated he is wrong but he will make Ford pay anyway. If the Dealer didnt get a signature then that is a mistake but it seems to me that verbal authorization must have been given. I remember a post where Twisted said Ford gave him a option, no warranty or he could pay a portion of the repair and the would give him a warranty. I cant remember for sure but I thought at that point Twisted said he was going to get it fixed but would not pay. That in itself already shows this guy has intentions to decieve in someway. It doesnt matter if you steal a dollar from a poor old lady or a million from Bill Gates, your still a Thief. Im amazed at how alot of you can cheer this thief on, I thought that SVT owners were a more professional and intelligent group of people, not the rebelling hippies some of you act like on these boards. Please dont take that last statement out of porportion either, what I mean is look at the backgrounds in out truck pictures, we are for the most part a professional group with nice houses and nice toys in our sigs, not students living off parents money or bums. Twisted is just that, trying to twist the rules to fix a problem caused by his modifactions. Dont believe me, call any tuner and tell em you want a 10lb pully and chip to run low 11s. The 1st thing they are gonna do is warn you your motor is gonna go. Twisted decided to play and game and he lost, now he must pay to play.

 

I would agree with you to a point and that is “verbal” contracts do matter in some instances. In this case, a very basic case where most people with any knowledge of the automotive repair industry knows that they (the auto repair shop, dealership etc.) MUST have the owners consent in WRITTING prior to doing any work what so ever. I do believe, but could be mistaken, there is one way around a written consent and that would be a voice recording of the owner stating his/her approval for the work to be performed. Just like they have to do when you change long distance phone companies and they ask your permission to record your conversation approving the change.

As someone else mentioned the dealer is basically going to have to eat it, and I would imagine someone is going to lose their job. If I was running the place and some bone head forgot something as simple as getting the owners “written consent” God only knows what else this person would screw up in my business.

Now, I will admit like others I have absolutely no idea of the complete story, no one in this thread does. I am looking at it “bottom line” and “assuming” the statement made by Twisted concerning NO written consent is true. If that is the case, and I too am NOT a lawyer, but it looks pretty damn close to a closed case and the judge telling the dealers representative “Sorry pal consider this a learning experience, case closed, NEXT case” And I say that regardless if the dealer showed up with OJ’s dream team of lawyers…

EDIT: I make the above statement regardless what Ford may have done to disapprove the warranty repair. I think that part is basically mute at this point because now we are simple talking about the dealer repairing something “without” written consent. The “consent” part is the only relevant issue at this point, at least in my opinion.

 

Sorry screwed up and double posted.

 

Not to add any flame to this topic, but what do you base your assumption on regarding a written authorization to do repairs? I realize it's standard procedure in the industry to have the owner sign a work order, but that in itself does not keep a repair facility from making a repair. My dad had his own shop for years, and often the estimate was given to the person over the phone after being diagnosed and authorization was given verbally over the phone. We never had a problem, even when somebody refused to pay. Contract law can be very confusing and verbal contracts are also very powerful. I'm not saying who will come out ahead in this case, but I wouldn't base it on your opinion of requiring a signature. It's kind of like a repair shop posting "not responsible for loss or damage". That sign in itself doesn't protect the shop owner from having to pay any claims. They are still required to take reasonable care of the vehicle. If not, then they can be guilty of negligence and have to pay damages or loss.

I agree with another poster on here, it's hard to make a judgement when we are only getting certain parts of the story from one party. I'm not syaing Twisted99 isn't telling the truth, but it's amazing how two sides of a story can be so completely different, and both parties honestly think they are telling it exactly how it happened. That's why we have the court system to help resolve these differences.

 

No flame taken and you do make vaild points. But your above statements says it best...

 

By taking your vehicle to them you are giving them the same reasoning to repair your truck as you always have.

You took your truck there for repair, did you not? How can you say that they had your truck for all this time and you didn't know what was going on? You KNEW they were repairing your truck, because you KNEW when to go steal their services off their premises; you KNEW when your truck was ready!!!

Any Judge will school you in ethics and moral responsibilities, and since our laws are built off of similar principles, then you will soundly lose.

Just like your you're doing!

It also says in your manual that modifications to your vehicle can and will void your warranty.

You're looking for an out, and since they fixed your truck the first time you blew the first motor, you're looking for a free ride the 2nd time.

The funny thing is that you were using the same chip BOTH times you blew up your engines (you have verbally and writtenly told people this very fact). Did you NOT learn from that?

 

I dont know what the new motor would have cost but can you imagine what a good lawyer and time off of work is going to cost?i would think a lawyer capable of dueling with ford is going to be 10k,
this could be a life changing thing if he loses, a record, maybe a lost job, legal fees, is jail time possible? i think the fine print is going to win on this one.

 

Thanks for your comments...

I really do appreciate them.


SO..If a Dealership is aware you have modifications..they are Frauding Ford if they repair any damage and charge Ford back for the services ?

Is this how the thinking goes...

Being up front with the dealer just means
they have the discretion to continue the service under warranty or not. If they do
what makes them honest businesses...

The dealership was aware of my modifications....

The dealership installed the exact PCM that was said to have voided my warranty for a test drive and function test. I asked if this would void the warranty. I get a shoulder shrug.
Do I take this as a yes or no ?

Here is another fact : The Dealerships son was the service writer.

Granted this is just my side of the story.

Factory Tech....I have your valve body..
Do you think this could have cause the problem ?

This is a Criminal Charge..Not a civil one...yet.

Buzz...since you work for Ford...which you denied before....I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

My mods are in many of my posts....

Did the bucket seat mod void my warranty and place me at risk for a law suit ?

Guess you'll just have to take my word about having the cash to pay the bill...

So then the Magnusson act just says you may use aftermarket parts , as long as you keep quiet and never mention them...Plus you must remove them from your vehicle to seek warranty repair.
Is this the moral issue thing ...you mention....I have read the posts here regarding coating the contacts and all that...I did not do that....why...I was not trying to hide anything. I have nothing to hide....

Next question.

 

1st of all 2 wrongs dont make a right, Yes you are correct that if a dealer works on a vehicle that has mods that caused damage they are defrauding Ford. This is the reason Ford sends inspectors because they know dealers sometimes overlook mods to increase business.


If the dealer told you from the start your mods caused this and warranty wont cover it would you be happy ? No, you would prolly try another dealer. Either way that is all irrelevant


I guess in some way Im starting to see your thought process, here is mine. When a dealer gets word from a Ford inspector that it will not be covered the dealer must in turn call you and let you know. From what Ive read in your previous posts youve lead me to believe that was done. If Im mistaken I give you my appology and you have a beef with the dealer, not Ford Motor Company.


Please show me a link on any board where Ive said I dont work at a dealer. I post under Buzz Lightyear on NLOC.net SVTPERFORMANCE.com SVTPERFORMANCE.net or F150online.com

If you got into a wreck and the seat bracket failed, I think most reputible(sp) lawyers would say you have to accept some responsibilty in the matter.



The Magnusson act covers OEM parts, chips and pulleys are not OEM. If you put a K&N Filter on your car or truck and the mass air meter takes a dump because you overoiled it. The Magnusson act isnt going to do you any good because the filter didnt cause the failure the oil did.



Twisted, I can understand your frustration if the dealer got busted by Ford and didnt inform you. If that is the case you do have a beef with the dealer but not Ford Motor Company. In all your posts you have just gave us impression on how you were going to screw Ford. IMO the Dealer (might ) have broken it off in you but Ford cant be expected to pay for damage we do. I also thank you for posting in a mature way and not a pissing match fashion.

BTW- Due to slow economy I was laid off 2 weeks ago, Im looking for a job in the same field at a Ford Dealership.

 

As far as my having said I wanted to screw Ford..please post a link to my statement.....

Remember that many of my statements have been reactionary and not pre-emptive.