No doubt certain individuals are better off financially with a union than they ever would be without. I would never argue that, i see examples every day. So, yes, looking only at it from an individual workers perspective...especially if they plan to do the same type job for the rest of their life.....unions are great.

I think by every other way you can measure them, they are an overall negative to a business, an industry, our economy, our productivity as a nation, our global competativeness, our very way of life.

Personally, and I know this is going to be tough to understand for some, I could never join a union at this point in my life...it just goes against eveything I believe in and every philisophical basis I live by. I was in the teamsters as a student due to a part-time job at UPS but honestly the stuff I saw there and at the union offices made me sick to my stomach. I was so overpaid and the union management office was so fat from my dues that it was laughable. I am suprised UPS is able to remain profitable.

As they say....anyone under 20 who is a conservative has no heart and anyone over 20 who is a liberal has no brain.

 

Boy where to start?...............

Unions protect the workers, if you can't see that, then there is no since wasting my time talking to you. For all the non-union workers out there, why do you think you have the wage/benefit package you do have? Your company is doing it out of the goodness of their heart? LOL Unions go back to the early coal miners time, go to work in the dark and come home in the dark for little of nothing. I worked non-union a long time ago, learned my trade in the field from the people I worked with. If they where wrong, I was taught wrong.
Applied to a Pipefitters Local, was accepted and served a five year apprenticeship program. Worked 8 hours a day and then went to school 3 hours twice a week. O you say the non-union have an apprenticeship school, gee I wonder why? I have a benefit package for health care and a retirement. The non-union now offers these thing. Why, because of the unions. So you see even the non-union among us benefits from the unions
BTW...I will recieve my 25 yr pin from the UA in two years

VOTE YES, NASTY WENDY
It will be the best thing you ever did

 

The final decision is yours. Personally I wish at least my employer was just slightly more concerned about employee pay and benefits instead of executive bonuses, salaries, company cars, skyboxes (which they need to attract professionals of higher caliber*BS), company owned golf courses, paid for exec. spouse travels, golden umbrellas in the millions, bringing a company to the point stocks drop 10.00 a share thru stupid business decisions, ridiculous expenses like changing company colors, logos, and altering the name just enough to stamp their name on it, telling workers that we get paid plenty so what are we complaining about-if you don't like what you're paid-leave--they give themselves raises-we're paid in the lower/lower quartile of nuclear facilities, we have no input in how our benefits are added, taken away or changed, there is No negotion about anything, we have a posting process but it is bypassed by the co. when they decide to move someone up-they say it is a fair process, the list goes on so don't tell ME how wonderful life is in a non union environment. What's good in your case is not good in someone else's. Where you may have been brought up or owned or inherited private businesses, someone else is not in the same boat, where you can see goof offs, slobs, people plotting to avoid work, someone else works hard and likes to know that they have a retirement and hospitalization etc. I can go on and so can others so here's the scoop. FLASH-There's good and bad with unions, there's good and bad without. Which ever situation you're in I just hope it's better than some of the crap ones I've seen and am in. Would a union help?? Not sure but I think so. Would it save our jobs?? Maybe not, but we would at least have a better idea of the criteria needed to keep it if that's what we want. After thinking about it, I don't think I care or want to stay where I'm at. Union or no, if the company thinks of its employees as dog$#!t then you're doomed either way. Just get out. I'm not trying to start a war but I don't care. Everyone has their own life situations to deal with. You can affect your own life if you want. I'm working on not having to work for someone else. I want the right to cut my own pay when I suck or give myself a raise or bonus when I work hard. I'll kick my own butt when I catch myself goofing off. And I will not allow myself time off for smoke breaks 'cause I don't smoke and I don't want employees that do.
Really, just try to make good decisions and watch your own behind because it's a rare case when you can be absolutely sure someone else is.

I quit Cya. I can't type anymore. Over and out.

Don

 

Don't like unions, never have, never will....As said in several posts, a union has the ability to restrict your individual prosperity(you can't get promoted because you do your work better), you are stuck to whatever raise level has been collectively agreed upon for you (I'd rather get raises on my own merits and abilities), you lose out on other possible benefits that the company offers its non-union employees (education, paid by the company). I also see unions in places where they have no business being (i.e. pro sports, are you kidding me?)
As was also said, unions come into businesses where the company does not meet or address the concerns of the employee. Unfortunately, some of these unions are brought in under the wrong pretext and once in, they are difficult to remove and take over the decision making process for you, so if you don't like something and you mention it to the union, they will address it IF it benefits the union. Sorry, I like to make my own decisions upon what I do, where I go and how far I can advance....
And the funny thing is I work for a company that is about to become the biggest cable provider in the U.S. and would be a big target for the unions, but nothing has even been mentioned about getting a union....THANK GOD for small favors.....
I don't mean to bust on those who have it, but I like my freedom.....


Steve

 

Funny, all those things you say are union traits I'm seeing in a non union work place. I'll say it again. There's good and bad with both situations and sometimes the same things....
I've been in both. Union shop never restricted my ability to move up like the non union places did and do. The non union place I'm at can't spell meritorious increase but the union place knew how and gave them. I'd rather be a prisoner if non union is freedom.

I can't help myself. I wish this thread would get closed. People have gotten killed debating this.

 

Dr.D, my FRIEND!!!! We bump into each other again today! Shouldn't you be in Adobe Illustrator right about now? Just kidding! Anyway, you sure have a lot of complaints about your current employer, and admit you're not sure if you want to stay or not. But it got me thinking about something else, and what I'm about to say may not apply to you or anyone else in particular - so don't take this personally or anything. What I have been wondering for the past 5 pages of this thread is... how did you all end up at these depressing jobs with abusive employers, etc, etc? I mean... didn't you guys scope out the company before getting hired? Everything I read here makes it sound like Person ABC is stuck at company XYZ, but aren't you the ones who joined their organization willfully? This isn't Cold War Soviet Union, where one baby was born an Olympic gymnist and another was "assigned" figure skating, right? Of course, it's difficult to gauge any new employer as carefully as we'd like, but if there were already unions, surely one of their members could have told you what's wrong with the joint. Were there really no red flags? Honestly, if I was considering working for a company, and it had a union that was actively fighting for benefits, wages, and promotions... I don't think I would say "Gee, I'm glad there's a union to look out for my interests here." I'd run as fast as I could to the next company, which doesn't have the same problems between management and employees. I know the world is not as cut-and-dry as I might make it sound, and maybe that "other company" only exists in fairy tales... but the bad companies would have to be hurting if no one wanted to work for them and went to their competitor instead. I thought we all voted with our feet (and wallets)... whatever happened to taking your business elsewhere?

 

It WAS a good job. We got a new CEO a few years ago that started the downward spiral. Now we have a banker running the plant and he's gonna streamline to make us look good on Wall Street. The craft all feel from our experience with the work and manpower that this is short term. You need somebody to do the work. They are cutting heads and shortening schedules and soon it will bite them. Then they'll need to hire or contract out. This downsizing bit them once already but they WILL be right. Believe me, I used to really like working here. It wasn't always like this. They do pay for part of my college classes so I have been staying to take advantage of that unless I come across another job that offers the same. I want my degree , another 19 credits before I leave (on my own that is.) I'm finding out that without a degree there isn't a lot of tech jobs that pay good enough. And along the lines of what you're saying--not everyone can just say I quit and now I want to work at XYZ Inc., so here I come - pay me 60 k. I have a wife whose employed and she can't just up and leave her job. We do have bills, and they want their money. We both want out of this crap we're in and we are working toward that, BUT in the meantime I just want to complain. OK? No really, you know people aren't always lucky enough to be able to walk off one job and just cruise into another. There has to be some openings for your abilities. You have mouths to feed then you need to think harder about your decisions. At my job this downsizing has been done trough early retirements until now. You would have to see whats happening here to understand why I wish there was a union here. I don't think a union is the best thing since sliced bread. What was best before sliced bread? How do blind people know when they're done wiping after they go to the bathroom?
In a perfect world no union would ever exist, and I could walk out of this job tomorrow and walk into my new WONDERFUL job Mon. where they bring donuts and coffee in the morning, have Hooter's girls bring lunch, and deliver my dinner at home, then the Hooters girls show up again to bathe me then tuck me in for the night......pleasant dreams.

Would somebody close this thread already?? Man, doing that thing over in Illustrator from scratch is gonna be a bear for me.

Hey isn't this a truck site??? Don't union people build these? Maybe they ought to just go ahead and build them in Taiwan.

Isn't NLOC a union of a sort, mate?

Shouldn't I be doing vectar or adope drawings?

 

[QUOTE]My experience has been that unions spend more time telling people NOT to work. How to be LESS productive.

You're so full of crap it isn't even funny Doug. You have bought into the medias' generalizations and misconceptions about unions. Most union people work as hard or harder and are more qualified than their non-union counterparts.

 

I must say that Dr. D's views are very hard for me to argue with. He has been both Union and Non-Union and seems to favor Union. Like him I like my job and when I came to this company I liked the company. I am the most senior person in my department bar none and I helped start up the facility. I know it inside and out and I don't wish to leave. The new owners have taken everthing that was good about the job and discarded it. Our "President" continues to insult our intelligence and de-moralizes the workforce. My department has been downsized AND the work load has increased and our compensation package has been reduced. I like my job and the people I work with BUT I don't care for the New Bastard thats doing a **** poor job of running the company. I'll be voting YES as of now. Thanks to all and especially DR.D for the insight. For what its worth - the majority of the reasons non-union supporters gave really don't apply to my situation (raises are givenby time served ect.). Thanks again.

Side note - We have a worker out on workman's comp right now. The company is giving him hell and setting him up for termination. This guy is a 100% good worker, he hurt himself because he was responding to a fire and dressed in his full bunker gear when a control room operator called him to close a valve located near the top of a structure (about 250' tall). Coming back down from the structure the in the bunker gear boots he slipped from the latter and injured his back. The call to close that valve could have gone to several other people that were not responding to the emergency but due to the nature of our operation he thought that more trouble would occur if the valve wasn't closed. Well it wasn't determined if that was the case or but the company is giving him flat out hell. He wants to come back to work as workman's comp pays him less than half of what he takes home from his wages. He can't pay his bills on that. His injury will take time and maybe surgery to heal. He put his life on the line for this company and almost lost it and the company is now showing their appreciation eh? This simply is the most recent thing the company has done not the worste but its probably in the the top three.

 

With all due respect to all of those who have posted to this topic in the last day or so, I find it hard to believe it is still active insofar as it has absolutely nothing to do with Ford trucks, let alone Lightnings (former 99 owner and long time poster).

At best, it might have have a place in the General Forum but certainly not here.
Bill

 

Maybe in your world. Most of the union work I've seen over the last several years is embarrassing, and the lack of education and training is laughable. Recently, it's been sooooo bad that it's difficult to describe, but it's now the "standard."

The old joke was "made in China." Now the joke is "Trained by a union lemming/Made by a union lemming."

 

Spike,

Unfortunately, "made in china" is starting to mean
something. Most of the stuff we manufacture there is
pretty high in quality and a hell of a lot cheaper than
what we used to make "in-country" here. We are
becoming a "service" econmomy by default because
nobody gives a S H I T anymore

 

I said that there is a place for unions and that is with companies that do not take good care of their employees. I personally don't like them and would not work for one.
I took a tour not so long ago of the Harley plant in York, Pa and was pretty impressed by it all, but one of the things that bothered me about it was that everywhere I looked, all the boxes of materials (screws, bolts, angle pieces, etc) all had one thing in common. They were all manufactured overseas. I was always under the impression that everything that is on a Harley was American made. Now I come to realize that only the assembly is American made. I would have understood why they cost so much if it all was American hardware and manufacturing.
I think they are awesome bikes and am jealous of those that can afford them.
The other thing that bothers me about unions is that there is no way you can get into a shop that has one unless you have a relative there or know someone. Your academic scores, previous experience doesn't mean squat. A person would be hired there because they are a card carrying member of a union versus one who is more qualified testing wise.
One more rant and I will shut the he!! up. Went to New York to help out with the Toy Fair at the Jacob Javits Center. The person I went to help could not bring in his carpeting to his location because it did not have a union label on it. I was not allowed to help move in the stuff to his cubicle and on top of that, the electrical union there charged him to have an electrician bring over two light stands and plug them in using acceptable extension cords. Of course you do not want me to get started on the rates for everything there.
The whole idea is this, there would be no need for unions if more companies took care of their employees. Flat out

Steve

 

A union lemming built your L.

 

The whole idea is this, there would be no need for unions if more companies took care of their employees. Flat out

Steve [/B][/QUOTE]


You have hit the nail right on the head.. I have read through this whole thread and all I see is a bunch of bad managers.. If we spent more time teaching folks how to be a good manager and why that matters to the employee, the company and the stock holder then there would be some real positive differences.. but alas that is not the case everywhere..
Dana