Cowlady,

I can understand how this would affect you more directly than others. I must still disagree with your initial statement.

This event became personal to you more than others due to location. Terrorism became very personal to me when the Marine Barracks in Beirut was bombed by the same type of cowards. I was a Marine at the time, and could not change the fact that many fellow Marines had just been killed.

We MUST move on, but this doesn't mean we will forget. In the case of the Marine Barracks, these were people who had accepted that they may be placed in harms way. In the case of the trade center, these were people who did not expect to be attacked. The loss of either group is just as tragic.

We can consider these people victims and submit ourselves to fear and emotion.

I prefer to consider these people symbols of freedom. They died only because they were part of the greatest nation in the world. To die with such freedoms is something that many others will never have the opportunity to do.

 

I agree with signmaster, moving on does not mean forgetting. Moving on means picking up the pieces afterwards, REMEMBERING what has happened and to whom, and digging into our lives again. Absoultely no disrespect intended to you, cowlady, as I understand the personal impact.

Dennis pointed out that he personally will not fly on an airbus, for various reasons, ranging from not trusting them to the government subsidies they recieve as a European Consortium. I prefer to look at it this way, if not for Airbus, who would be Boeing's competitor? (especially now that McDonnel Douglas has been folded into Boeing) Where would the incentive be for Boeing to continue to improve their products? Certainly, while some may view it as unpatriotic to fly an Airbus, isn't that one of the things that America is about - being able to make your own choices? (In this case, for airlines to make thier choices?) I will agree over and over again that the subsidies that Airbus recieves does not make for a level playing field, but I don't view it as unpatriotic to fly on an Airbus. The operating revenue from the flight pays American workers for the airline just the same. Competition is a good thing, and just blindly saying "buy American" isn't going to exactly do anyone any favors in the long run. I shudder to think of what types of automobiles we would be driving today had the Japanese automakers not forced the hands of American automakers into making better products. Changes sure as hell weren't going to come without a big old kick in the ***! Do I feel for workers at Boeing who lose thier jobs as Airbus takes market share away, sure. I went to school and am friends with several people in that boat. Competition is a good thing in the long term for consumers, even it does cause short term pains.

 

Hey gopher,

I'ts pretty clear you always take the easy road. I think you're lazy. You can come back at me and slam me into the dirt as if I was un-American and then try to pull back out and say PEACE. Seems like you only can say what someone else says and the rest you say you can't comment on until some more has been revealed. You seem to have formed an opinion of me and it sure does stink. You can go fly a kite!

You seem to just repeat whatever is the latest results of an investigation and even go so far as to say that if someone can prove terrorism in this crash that you may change you mind. That's crazy to me, sounds like you can't even keep your original opinion based on the original circumstances.

The whole point of this thread was to see what everyone's opinion is and see how that lines up with the facts of the investigation, not to keep changing your story as the facts come out so that you can then be right.

BTW, I'm not afraid to fly and I will when I need to. I must die somehow and if it's in a plane then that will just have to be. If there is a terrorist on board, you better bet you *** that I'm gonna try and kill that *** hole and you better not get in my way.

If a plane goes down and I'm in it, I will not jump to say terrorism unless it just seems too damn fishy and then I've got a right to my opinion. If the plane does not crash, I won't change my opinion when I find out the truth and I can accept the results of an investigation and I can move on but no matter what I will never change my opionion based on what I knew when the question was originally asked.

DaveMan

 

Daveman,

He was "Peacing" (did I just make up a new word?) back at me, not you.

 

Apparently, one can only ever form an opinion about a topic once. At least thats what it sounds like to me, Daveman. Unfortunately, opinions are not fixed things, they only reflect your thoughts at one fixed moment in time.

I'm not sure where you get the opinion I only spout off about the latest facts and never say anything on my own. I have stated over and over again that my OPINION is that the incident was an accident. I have said that from the very beginning that I DO NOT think this was terrorism related. Pardon me for taking the time to actually reseach the facts behind that opinion. I have taken the time to share some of the information I have found here. If that is not what you would like to hear, then don't read my posts.

I will be enjoying my thanksgiving trip with family and friends in Denver this year. I will be flying by choice, not fearful of flying as others would like us to be as a result of everything that happens. You are right that you could live your whole life in fear but you are going to die anyways, so you might as well enjoy it while you are here. That is how I live my life.

As far as your opinion of me, again, you don't know 100% (i would venture a guess not even 1%) about me either, so under your logic, you don't know anything about me. I'm sorry you seem to take anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion so personally, but I will gladly call people like you on the table when you call the rest of us lazy, ignorant, or un-american. Look in the mirror before you open that can of worms. I don't know a thing about you, but based on what you've posted here, thats just fine by me.

And I'll say it again, PEACE!

 

Daveman,

So he's wrong because he doesn't agree with your thoughts on the situation? You both have equal rights to your opinions, some of us will just have to agree to disagree on them.


Food for thought.......

Both the military and police have used pshcological profiling for years. Overall, they have made some progress but they still don't really know what causes a person to react in such situations. For the most part, research has shown that courage and ability to react are based on a persons instincts and very little can to done to change that fact.

This is the very reason that police and military often train so hard for certain situations. The intent is to do it so often that it will become a natural reaction and overcome the natural human fear.



This says a lot for the passengers that fought back on flight 92, especially considering the fact that they had time to think it through before acting. I agree that they should be commended for their actions.

To say that you would do the same is somewhat without basis. Even though your intentions may be to react in such a way, until you are in the situation you don't know.


This example also shows the lack of proper training and techniques on the part of the terrorists. Had they been properly prepared, it is highly doubtful that any small group would be able to overpower them. We should be glad that the terrorists were not as capable as the media would lead us to beleive. We should be greatful that those who fought back had the presence of might to accept that their actions were justified.

Not to offend or take anything away from any of the cops, firefighters or other rescue and air workers. They should all be thanked for their efforts and in some case sacrifice. I must say however, that these are people who have accepted a profession which they know may put them in harms way. This was a decision they have already made with full knowledge of the risks involved.

The passengers on flight 92 did not willingly place themselves in harms way. They were not trained to deal with such actions. Yet they did. It is my personal opinion that these people, and especially the small group that first voiced their thoughts of fighting back, are the true heros of this entire attack.

 

Cowlady, so, why is it that some can post their opinion and only their opinion, whereas some post their opinion and attack the "other" opinions? Food for thought.... goes back to the respect for others thing.....

gopher, sounds to me like you just want to have your opinion, change it whenever you like and slam anyone who differs?

 

Can I have my cake and eat it too?

I will note I have slammed one person, as for the rest who have differing opinions, it is nothing personal by any means. All I ask is that a little thought goes into the message that comes out. That's it!

 

Hey gopher,

Let's start all over!

What would be your OPINION if a jet airliner crashed into the WTC?

The only information you've got to go with is that the news showed the plane going into the tower and there would be no further details than that.

No one has claimed responsibility and no one has come forward with any theories on what happened.

What is your opinion of what happened?

DaveMan

 

Just so I am understood-move on, not forget.

BTW, I am military, active duty.

 

Daveman - I just want to make sure you understand what you wrote that got me riled up. From an earlier post:

Neither you nor I were there. I would never wish for anyone to be in that situation. Folks on that plane did have time to react - somewhat on gut instinct, like you have pointed out, but there were also several phone conversations that occured after the hijacking took place. They knew what had happened to the WTC. Passengers on the other jets did not have that information. Prior to these incidents, the best advice in the event of a hijacking was to sit tight and things generally would work out, as the goal of the hijackers was NOT mass destruction. The thought of hijacking a plane to use as a weapon was remote at best. In the current climate, sure, we would react differently to an event like this, were we on board. But we aren't, and god help us that we never are. The reality is we can sit here and offer all the opinions, facts, etc.. we want, but idly speculating based on facts is different in this case than what went down on 9/11.

Yep, we have a difference in opinions on what may have brought down flight 587. That's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions. I feel like a line was crossed in your quote above. Two different scenarios, that much is clear.

In any event, the persoanl attacks are over with on this end. Just want you to know how I felt DAVEMAN. The olive branch is extended here...

 

Gopher,

To be absolutely clear as to what I meant by what I said:

I was trying to put into perspective that the guys/gals that risked their lives to take control of the plane could have easily taken a different position than what we think happened. They could have easily said to each other that since they got their information on the phone that maybe there could be a misunderstanding. Maybe the highjackers are not going to kill us. Maybe we will live despite the other two planes crashing into the WTC towers or any other rational conclusion that you would expect from most folks.

Instead, those brave souls apparently decided to take matters into their own hands despite what most folks would call overreacting, and try and overpower the highjackers and risk their lives as well as the lives of the rest of the passengers on board. The gamble paid off, and they were right, and they did the patriotic heroic thing and saved possibly thousands of lives because of it. I would venture to guess that a very high percentage of folks would have remained seated and not done a thing even with information coming from friends and relatives telling them of all the other destruction because they could have been wrong and killed all the passengers because of the wrong decision under pressure but I don’t think that’s how it played out.

My point was that if there was no one on board who had the ***** to, form a group, decide that everyone on board was going to die, make a plan to try and kill those *** holes and take over the plane that there’s no telling what else could have been destroyed. If the original plans the *** holes had would have been able to play out the outcome could have been just as deadly if not worse than the WTC tragedy.

I still read my original quote and don’t see where I changed my point much so if that still pisses you off or riles you up then I’m at a loss with us moving past this point.

I just hope that everyone else knows better how I feel by spending this time to explain myself. I would like to think that I don’t over react in the site of tragedy or terror. However, I would like to think that I would react to terror or tragedy when the obvious is hitting me square between the eyes.

DaveMan

 

Move on means to do just that. Don't let what happened on 9/11 control and worse, consume your life. If you allow it to control your life, then the terrorists have won the war. Don't let them win this damned war! We need to do an "UP YOURS" at them. Re-build the twin towers. Make them bigger, taller, and better that what was there before.

Get on those airplanes and fly somewhere. It's still safer to fly than it is to drive! What's the statistics about driving? Over 40,000 people die in vehicle accidents every year. Where's the outcry? Where's the people screaming, "I'LL NEVER GO ANYWHERE IN A CAR FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!!!"

Buy American. Drive American. Fly US and on American built planes. Keep traveling in our country. Keep spending money on things and activities that helps our country. Every dollar that we spend that stays in this country only helps our economy. Every dollar that goes to places like China hurts us.

Folks, our economy is suffering because people have allowed the events of 9/11 to rule their lives. It's time to Move On.

BTW, in regards to Airbus, competition is good so long as it's fair. Airbus subsidies are unfair, just as it's unfair for Japanese companies to sell goods in the USA for less than it sells for in Japan. My thinking is that Airbus caused the demise of McDonnel Douglas. So, the way I look at it, I'm helping the US economy by not flying on Airbus planes.

 

I've moved on Daveman. We cool? BTW, that King Ranch is one nice looking ride. I'm not a leather interior fan myself, but I think that is one sharp looking ride!

I agree wholeheartedly on the subsidy position regarding Airbus. Unfortunatly with only two large commercial airframe builders, we're kind of stuck with Airbus vs. Boeing. In some ways, McDonnell Douglas was a dinosaur that was going to go whether Airbus was there or not. At the time they were rolled into Boeing, didn't they really only have two or three planes in production ( MD-80 and 90 series, and the MD-11 come to mind). I fly between Denver and Minneapolis quite a bit, and the hometown airline (I won't say who but they fly North and West ) typically puts the Airbus A320 or the Boeing 757-200 on those flights. The Boeing is a PITA to fly on with a narrow isle, I'm always stuck back in row 41 or so of a 42 row plane, and it just is a crowded plane in my opinion. The Airbus has a nice wide isle so my shoulders don't get rammed into by the beverage carts.

NW also flys one of the oldest fleets since they decided to keep their DC-9 aircraft. There was an article not too long ago about the fleet and the fact that some of the planes are pushing 40 years of service and still going strong. Even more remarkable is the fact that they have the highest reliabilty rating of all the aircraft types they fly. Not too shabby for a plane getting up there in years! Even better, they're all paid for! I think we all understand that...

 

I hope it is not a Terrorist act but my wife cousin is head of all maintenance people for a major airline. {I will not tell which one.} He said that flight 800 was a terrorist act. And has some proof of it but they told he to be quite. I have not talk to him about this crash yet. As we eat are Thanksgiving dinner let us pray for peace in this world