Excessive force?
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From: Hollywood, CA
Excessive force?
A guy with a gun threatens police. They shoot and kill him. No problem. Totally justifiable. The part I find a little excessive is that after they shot him, they shot again, 58 more times. This was found to be justified because they "had reason to fear death or serious harm". Now, if you're still fearing death or serious harm after you've shot the guy for the 40th time, wtf is the problem? This guy Superman or something?
http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9024921
http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9024921
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Ok, he was not hit 58 times. 59 shots were fired.
He had 43 wounds, many of which were presumably exit wounds.
Sounds like at least six guys were shooting at him. So each guy squeezed off 10 shots each in rapid fire when the dead dude got way out of line.
It is not clear if some of the 43 wounds were shotgun pellets.
It is described as suicide by cop, but the exact nature of the guy's actions is not detailed. He is described as armed. We don't know with what, or if he was endangering other people besides the cops.
Basically, the article leaves many questions unanswered, but it does a good job of ginning up hatred toward the cops, who may have done nothing wrong.
Jus' sayin'.
He had 43 wounds, many of which were presumably exit wounds.
Sounds like at least six guys were shooting at him. So each guy squeezed off 10 shots each in rapid fire when the dead dude got way out of line.
It is not clear if some of the 43 wounds were shotgun pellets.
It is described as suicide by cop, but the exact nature of the guy's actions is not detailed. He is described as armed. We don't know with what, or if he was endangering other people besides the cops.
Basically, the article leaves many questions unanswered, but it does a good job of ginning up hatred toward the cops, who may have done nothing wrong.
Jus' sayin'.
Last edited by dirt bike dave; Jul 22, 2010 at 09:46 PM.
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From: Hollywood, CA
I didn't say he was hit 59 times, I said they shot 58 times, and I do believe the guy had it coming, don't get me wrong, but I think it's excessive to shoot that many times. If you see the guy hit, then you shouldn't finish emptying your clip, especially not if you know you have 5 friends with you and that you're all shooting. If you don't see him hit, then you're blindly firing shots in the wind. Hopefully to God none of those were from a shotgun, that means that it took even longer than just handguns being emptied.
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From: Corona, Crazyfornia
I didn't say he was hit 59 times, I said they shot 58 times, and I do believe the guy had it coming, don't get me wrong, but I think it's excessive to shoot that many times. If you see the guy hit, then you shouldn't finish emptying your clip, especially not if you know you have 5 friends with you and that you're all shooting. If you don't see him hit, then you're blindly firing shots in the wind. Hopefully to God none of those were from a shotgun, that means that it took even longer than just handguns being emptied.
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
I say if you think the m'fer intends to kill you, you better empty your damn clip. You don't get bonus points for conserving your ammo in that situation.
Don't stop for a head count of your buddies. Don't evaluate the condition and vitals of the perp after each squeeze of the trigger.
Just squeeze as if your life depends on it, because it might.
If you live, you can protect the general public tomorrow.
Well, maybe not tomorrow. But for sure next month after you get done with the administrative review of whether or not you and the other guys really felt one of your lives were threatened.
Don't stop for a head count of your buddies. Don't evaluate the condition and vitals of the perp after each squeeze of the trigger.
Just squeeze as if your life depends on it, because it might.
If you live, you can protect the general public tomorrow.
Well, maybe not tomorrow. But for sure next month after you get done with the administrative review of whether or not you and the other guys really felt one of your lives were threatened.
Last edited by dirt bike dave; Jul 22, 2010 at 11:51 PM.
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From: Bismarck, ND
I didn't say he was hit 59 times, I said they shot 58 times, and I do believe the guy had it coming, don't get me wrong, but I think it's excessive to shoot that many times. If you see the guy hit, then you shouldn't finish emptying your clip, especially not if you know you have 5 friends with you and that you're all shooting. If you don't see him hit, then you're blindly firing shots in the wind. Hopefully to God none of those were from a shotgun, that means that it took even longer than just handguns being emptied.
You can say all you want about blindly firing into the wind, but you've obviously never shot anyone, you don't know how the body reacts to that kind of situation. Your adrenaline skyrockets, you lose fine motor skills almost immediately, your peripherial vision goes to nil, your ability to change focus (ie from looking at a full human, to noticing a bullet wound) is diminished, you may have a tremor or shake uncontrollably. These are all natural responses to this kind of situation. It is easy to sit back in the comfort of your home and criticize, but look into what happens to your (and everybody elses) body when you experience a tramatic situation. Then ask this very simple question, of all the shots fired, how many times was he shot on the ground vs. standing. If there were any how many times was he shot on the ground while he was still trying to wield his weapon at an officer. I'd put money down that he wasn't shot a single time after he finally stopped moving and being a threat.
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From: Gulf Coast
well, i can say that as someone who has been trained both by federal and state governments on use of lethal force, when you shoot you continue to fire until the threat has stopped. This means that as long as the guy is standing and has a weapon in his hand keep firing no matter how many times he's been hit. And i'd imagine that there was at least 1 shotgun firing, i know that it is considered the primary weapon for certain patrolling posts.
You can say all you want about blindly firing into the wind, but you've obviously never shot anyone, you don't know how the body reacts to that kind of situation. Your adrenaline skyrockets, you lose fine motor skills almost immediately, your peripherial vision goes to nil, your ability to change focus (ie from looking at a full human, to noticing a bullet wound) is diminished, you may have a tremor or shake uncontrollably. These are all natural responses to this kind of situation. It is easy to sit back in the comfort of your home and criticize, but look into what happens to your (and everybody elses) body when you experience a tramatic situation. Then ask this very simple question, of all the shots fired, how many times was he shot on the ground vs. Standing. If there were any how many times was he shot on the ground while he was still trying to wield his weapon at an officer. I'd put money down that he wasn't shot a single time after he finally stopped moving and being a threat.
You can say all you want about blindly firing into the wind, but you've obviously never shot anyone, you don't know how the body reacts to that kind of situation. Your adrenaline skyrockets, you lose fine motor skills almost immediately, your peripherial vision goes to nil, your ability to change focus (ie from looking at a full human, to noticing a bullet wound) is diminished, you may have a tremor or shake uncontrollably. These are all natural responses to this kind of situation. It is easy to sit back in the comfort of your home and criticize, but look into what happens to your (and everybody elses) body when you experience a tramatic situation. Then ask this very simple question, of all the shots fired, how many times was he shot on the ground vs. Standing. If there were any how many times was he shot on the ground while he was still trying to wield his weapon at an officer. I'd put money down that he wasn't shot a single time after he finally stopped moving and being a threat.
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From: Iowa
Well, I can say that as someone who has been trained both by federal and state governments on use of lethal force, when you shoot you continue to fire until the threat has stopped. This means that as long as the guy is standing and has a weapon in his hand keep firing no matter how many times he's been hit. And I'd imagine that there was at least 1 shotgun firing, I know that it is considered the primary weapon for certain patrolling posts.
You can say all you want about blindly firing into the wind, but you've obviously never shot anyone, you don't know how the body reacts to that kind of situation. Your adrenaline skyrockets, you lose fine motor skills almost immediately, your peripherial vision goes to nil, your ability to change focus (ie from looking at a full human, to noticing a bullet wound) is diminished, you may have a tremor or shake uncontrollably. These are all natural responses to this kind of situation. It is easy to sit back in the comfort of your home and criticize, but look into what happens to your (and everybody elses) body when you experience a tramatic situation. Then ask this very simple question, of all the shots fired, how many times was he shot on the ground vs. standing. If there were any how many times was he shot on the ground while he was still trying to wield his weapon at an officer. I'd put money down that he wasn't shot a single time after he finally stopped moving and being a threat.
You can say all you want about blindly firing into the wind, but you've obviously never shot anyone, you don't know how the body reacts to that kind of situation. Your adrenaline skyrockets, you lose fine motor skills almost immediately, your peripherial vision goes to nil, your ability to change focus (ie from looking at a full human, to noticing a bullet wound) is diminished, you may have a tremor or shake uncontrollably. These are all natural responses to this kind of situation. It is easy to sit back in the comfort of your home and criticize, but look into what happens to your (and everybody elses) body when you experience a tramatic situation. Then ask this very simple question, of all the shots fired, how many times was he shot on the ground vs. standing. If there were any how many times was he shot on the ground while he was still trying to wield his weapon at an officer. I'd put money down that he wasn't shot a single time after he finally stopped moving and being a threat.
And good post Benny.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
I'm reminded of my personal protection training and the LEO that trained us in the use of firearms and deadly force. His exact words were, "In a kill or be killed situation, shoot to kill, continue to shoot to kill until the other person is confirmed killed. This IS NOT the time to conserve ammo !! I will GLADLY rather remove a criminal by body bag than remove a homeowner in a body bag that was killed by a criminal." He also went on to say that he DID NOT consider multiple gunshot wounds in a criminal "use of excessive force", but rather an adrenaline reaction in a stressful situation. As he put it, "The only good life threatening criminal is a DEAD life threatening criminal. Make sure they are dead and avoid paying for a trial and incarceration."
Words to live by from law enforcement.
Words to live by from law enforcement.
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From: Corona, Crazyfornia
AZ Mr. Bill
Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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I'm reminded of my personal protection training and the LEO that trained us in the use of firearms and deadly force. His exact words were, "In a kill or be killed situation, shoot to kill, continue to shoot to kill until the other person is confirmed killed. This IS NOT the time to conserve ammo !! I will GLADLY rather remove a criminal by body bag than remove a homeowner in a body bag that was killed by a criminal." He also went on to say that he DID NOT consider multiple gunshot wounds in a criminal "use of excessive force", but rather an adrenaline reaction in a stressful situation. As he put it, "The only good life threatening criminal is a DEAD life threatening criminal. Make sure they are dead and avoid paying for a trial and incarceration."
Words to live by from law enforcement.
Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 122
I'm reminded of my personal protection training and the LEO that trained us in the use of firearms and deadly force. His exact words were, "In a kill or be killed situation, shoot to kill, continue to shoot to kill until the other person is confirmed killed. This IS NOT the time to conserve ammo !! I will GLADLY rather remove a criminal by body bag than remove a homeowner in a body bag that was killed by a criminal." He also went on to say that he DID NOT consider multiple gunshot wounds in a criminal "use of excessive force", but rather an adrenaline reaction in a stressful situation. As he put it, "The only good life threatening criminal is a DEAD life threatening criminal. Make sure they are dead and avoid paying for a trial and incarceration."
Words to live by from law enforcement.
Why is it so hard for people to understand? They call on cops to help then squeal about them doing what they don't have the courage to do themselves!
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Cops say: Drunk dude with long record is running around waving a rifle in a threatening way. Repeated attempts to disarm him fail. Eventually, they are forced to shoot him in 'suicide by cop' incident before someone gets hurt.
Dude's girlfriend and relative say: He was actually laying down on his porch on top of the rifle in a non-threatening way. When the cops started shooting him for no reason, he began asking 'Why? Why are you shooting me?' (though this is not audible on the police tape).
Wow. I just don't know who to believe
