[QUOTE=FX41;3689686]Ref, whether you admit it or not there is a difference betwee the two. Bush, might have held hands with the Saudi leader, but, for an instance and like Dirt Bike Dave said, was completly unaware of the press.

Chairman MaoBama on the other hand, BOWED to the King of Saudi, and then is all open arms and, "whats up man, nice to meet you in person!" with a complete thug of the world who oppresses his people, media, and everything else he can get his hands on.

But,



is most likely becuause you, like most who think the same are leaning so far left that need a shovel to get past ninty degrees, and think that America is full of a bunch of thugs who should bow to other nations and that America is full of the real, "astroturf" terrorists.

Obama is legitimizing the worlds dictators. You don't degotiate with them you kill them.[/QUOTE]

Nixon's presidency was crowned by opening the doors to China---he travelled there and negotiated with Mao.
One cannot say that the late King Fahd was not only a ruthless king---in effect; he was a ruthless dictator. Saudi Arabia is rife with civil rights violations---but, we overlook those because it suits our needs. I bought a new pair of umpiring plate shoes the other day---(reeboks) they were manufactured in Vietnam---the very same country that killed 55,000 Americans.

I am not liking the picture with Obama much, either; but my point is---it is not new news---same old, same old.

SSDD

TC

 

For those who think Obama is prostituting the US, look at these pics:


Yep, Richard Milhouse Nixon, shaking hands with Mao---helping end the Cold War---China is still Communist, still run by a Dictator, and still has many human rights violations.



This is Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with you-know-who.

Obama isn't doing anything new---you guys just hate him and what he is doing. I can understand that. But, in the larger scheme of things, what is he doing that other notable people (including some very high profile conservative Republicans) haven't done?

America has prostituted itself for quite some time, now.

TSC

 

 

That may be true, but none of those men or American presidents have leanings towards socialism, unlike Obama.

Do you hear that? It's the sound of the founding fathers rolling in protest in their graves, all for Obama.

 

I have to disagree with ya, Stealth---my point is this---Obama---regrdless of how you feel is socialistic leanings to be, is doing nothing new. Some irony that shouldn't be missed is that Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense under W's daddy...and later on we took out the evil man with whom he was shaking hands.

No, I know you do not like Obama, but you have to admit, him shaking hands with Chavez is not at all unlike Nixon shaking hands with Mao, or Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein.

To shake hands with Mao---we cannot forget that he was a major faactor in the Korean War, and supplied North Vietnam with planes and fighter training...the only difference is the red or the blue of the president shaking hands.


As for rolling over in their graves--well, I think that began quite some time ago.
TSC

 

Yeah, but it is more pronounced now.

 

My problem isn't with the who's or ifs. We shake hands as individuals all the time. I'll have to say I have shaken hands with some people I didn't care to. It's just business.
I also do think the USA, needs to clean it's reputation up a little bit, and get back to work building this Country and helping upgrade the rest of the World in the Process. The biggest problem is we fight political wars, when what we need to be trying to change the Ideology of it all. I'm just hoping the seeds are being planted now. But then again, that has been tried before.
With Chavez? Watching him on Discovery or History Chanel. The Power he has is unreal, and his Staff meetings, He is nothing but a Bully... He crucifies his people just to show his power. I do not see how a person can stay in power that way. But then, He owns all the guns

 

So, beacuse it's been done before, that justifies four, eight, or more years of passivity by the American people?

I don't care how much some people want to make this a left-right issue. The American people need to stop sitting on their hands and do something.

I may not have been paying attention to the direction that various elected representatives have been taking us in my lifetime. You make a good point, that it's been going on for years. It's not any more right now than it was in the past.

I'm sorry, I'm not interested in playing party politics anymore. I don't see how what Bush did makes what Obama is doing right. They were/are both wrong. The people who have built this country and the good people who, by persuing the American dream, work to preserve it deserve better. There is no time like the presant to bring our elected officials back to reality. They need to start doing the job they are elected to do.

Legitimizing oppressors and dictators goes against the values and principals that our country was founded apon. It doesn't matter if the one legitimizing has an (R) or a (D) next to their name.

 

Never once did I say it was right---in fact, my implications were that we have been PROSTITUTING ourselves for quite sometime now. American politicians have "been in bed" with others before. I never said it was right---but that realistically, and truthfully, it is NOTHING NEW. We have been legitimizing oppressors for quite a while now. Chavez in just one in a long line of them.

Consider Eisenhower. During the Korean truce talks, he knew that many US POW's were being held in China (by Mao.) He left them there to die---he did not demand their return. He sold them out to end the war sooner.

Like I said before, we sold F-14's to Iraq to help do the dirty work with Iran, and then have to turn around and face the very same fighters that we sold them. Husseain---we needed to legitimize him for our purposes--ignoring human rights violations galore.

Nixon even read one of Mao's poems when they first met---

If you are wearing Nike's, Reeboks, Asics, etc---you had better take them off because they are most likely made in Vietnam. We can buy them though, as we can pay a lower costfor them---never minding where they are mad, and by whom they are made...we ourselves our hypocritical in that regard.

Rumsfeld shook hands with Hussein---then we have his country attacked and he was executed. I guess hes served our purpose.

And, as stated before, who flew the planes into the WTC? Saudi citizens.

No, Tom, I didn't say it was right---but it is very, very real.

Tim C.

 

Nice one Ref!

Be prepared for a lot of "YA BUTS"

 

"keep you friends close, but keep your enemies closer!"

note: The phrase was spoken by Al Pacino's character, Michael Corleone. However, that's not where it originated. Many sources attribute the quote to Sun Tzu in The Art of War, but others dispute that. Some say it was taken from an interpretation of Macchiavelli's The Prince.

 

Most of those actions you talk about had important implications. We had vested interests in talking to who we did. But you tell me, what does chaves or castro have that we need? Absolutly nothing. You can make the claim that chaves has oil we need. But obama is against oil to start with. So I doubt that is any reason. Look at it this way: If we were prostituting ourselfs before, now we are giving it away free.

 

So, the fact that the Saudis have oil--and the fact that we need/want their land for military bases...well, then we can overlook a few (sarcastically said) human rights violations by a royal family/dictator. We can certainly turn a blind eye when the time comes,can't we?

The bottom line is this---you folks just do not like Obama, and anything he does---in this case, talking to Chavez, PO's you. I can understand that...but you had better look at who else did whatever with whomever years and years before. Your argument should go back to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, etc..

TSC

 

Chris, you are talking about a "YA BUT" here---

Ya, but it is OK to deal with THIS oppressive regime as we need their oil/land/permission to wage war.

It is perfectly acceptable for us to be hypocritical when we overlook this regime's human rights violations/ruthlessness because of "vested interests."

So, selling out for oil and military bases is OK----that makes it OK--but when Obama talks to another ruthless, villainous dictator with gobs of oil---"Heaven help us, this guy is a menace to us all..."

And leave the anatomical parts out of it, please.

Nope, what Obama did may not be agreeable; but the "friendship of convenience" with other dictators/royal families is a way of life for us, is it not?

TSC

 

I don't think ever before an American president has showed submissivness (the bow) to another country's leader. Respect, sure (as a hand shake). But to be submissive especially to a muslim leader is very dangerous. It shows how weak he is. There is a difference.