Ford man and JPF1715 are both correct. For example, a brand new Glock 17 manufactured this month..can legally have a pre-ban 17 round magazine in it (+1 in the chamber)...free and clear.

However, DON'T get caught using L.E.O. 'Law enforcement only' with a date stamped on the side with ANY pistol you currently own..these were manufactured AFTER the ban and are very illegal to use...like JPF1715 said.

There is still a huge supply of pre-ban high capacity magazines out there..but the prices are quite often triple or more for that of a regular magazine.

*soap box*
JPF1715..I am glad that the two who did not empty their weapons demonstrated restraint for crying out loud! The other two who did empty their weapons...are 'loose cannons'!!

Ron Kaltenbach,
Current ARMY training is to aim carefully..it was proven that the Vietnam "spray and pray" was a waste. I have heard several reports that it took the equivalent of several thousand rounds to kill *ONE* of the enemy. This is why ARMY doctrine has been changed...and as my fellow Ranger buddies in Somalia found out in their half-a-day fire fight..ammo eventually runs out if wasted. Many had to scramble to find ammo in that fire fight!!!! When I was in country (Somalia)..we as Medevac pilots and our crewchiefs/medics only carried a 9mm pistol and had a limited number of rounds (thanks to the Geneva convention). Our training was also to take careful aim if we ever had to. (The Task Force 160th crews had the nice full auto MP-5s, M-16s, and minni guns in the doors and plenty of ammo).

The mentality of police officers (and *NOT* all of you*) to keep firing until the target is full of holes is crazy (despite the training films)!! Think about all of those rounds that are missing..ripping through walls and the potential for someone innocent standing down the road or in another room to be killed. Not all police officers are skilled shooters, not even close....and when the panic factor/adrenaline is there...it can get very interesting quick. There have been news stories about police agencies all over the US obtaining surplus ARMY issue full auto M-16s rifles (and other gear - 60 minutes about 1 year ago..I still have the story on tape)..and these were just *not* for the highly trained S.W.A.T. teams either. A regular patrolman has no business having an AR-15/M-16 in their patrol car!! These rounds travel at over 3,100 fps and are very lethal even at long distances. But then again, I am just a private citizen and I no longer make up the rules.

**In defense of police officers though..there are <criminals> with assault weapons..which, as in the case above...'could' have easily taken out all 4 of the officers in the hands of a skilled shooter. So it is a catch-22 situation. Being a cop is a dangerous job today....one I would not want!

I wasn't there..I am not going to continue to 'second guess' these guys..if I had been there..I MORE THAN LIKELY would NOT have had my pistol on 'full auto mode'. My only concern is that *ALL* 4 opened up, fired a <staggering> 41 rounds and hit the victim 19 times. Lucky for these guys..there was that *one* witness who heard 'gun'..otherwise, they would all be in prison right now...with 'Bubba'.


OK..back to F-150 trucks!!!


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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99

 

>>>>Ford Man, you are correct, and if you look at my previous posts you'll not find anywhere I try to contradict that. Our department recently upgraded from the SIG 9mm to the SIG 357. Each 9mm had three high capacity clips with it. We had the option to buy our service weapon for the value it gave towards the trade in to the 357's. These clips were manufactured prior to 1994. I bought my weapon because of the clips and have had numerous offers for the weapon and or the clips. Yep these pre 94 high capacity clip prices have risen since the law came into effect in 94 and demand has risen for use with new and older pistols.

 

This is definitely off subject, but how are you liking the .357 Sig?

 

>>>>Dustoff, we'll have to agree to disagree on the number of rounds fired. I completly understand what you are saying and why you believe it. Just being on this side of the badge I feel a little differently. Just because someone is down, doesn't mean that they are no longer a threat. Nor the fact that someone has been hit multiple times with a large caliber weapon does not mean that they will be incapacitated or die immediately(too much tv). There have been many documented cases where criminals were shot numerous times center mass and didn't expire for several minutes, killing or wounding more officers and civilians before they died. Like the incident with the FBI in the early 80's down in FL I believe just to mention one. When an officer fires his weapon it is to shoot to kill, not to wound or to warn, it is simply lethal force. Not much more I can say that I didn't already say in the previous post.

>>>>The training films showed are not to scare the officer into shooting anything that moves nor to second guess the officers that were killed or injured. Just to show what went wrong and to learn from it, hopefully to prevent any future loss of life. Let me tell you, it's very sobering watching a fellow officer being shot and killed and not something I feel lightly about.

>>>>I can't speak for all departments, but many officers I know are gun enthusiasts and shoot quite frequently. "Not all police officers are skilled with their weapons, not even close". I strongly disagree with the last part of that statement. Speaking only for the large majority of the officers I know and shoot/work with, nearly all are quite skilled and good marksman. Yes not all are, but the majority are, because quite simply we have to be.

>>>>I am not a supporter of gun control. I believe in the right to bear and own firearms. But Dustoff I do agree with you about the assault rifles, I feel they have no place in society and serve no useful purpose other than that of the military and with police tactical teams (swat). We do not carry them in patrol vehicles, I know of no departments I have worked with here in VA that patrol officers carry them on routine patrol. The only officers I know that have those are the SWAT or TACTICAL TEAM officers. I would think that while there are some agencies that do, very few departments have their patrol officers carry these weapons. Mainly because of the concern for the departments liability. Besides, I'm very happy with my 357 and my trusty ol 12 gauge shotgun.

>>>>When I leave my expectant wife and soon to be child at home each day, I plan on doing whatever it takes to ensure that I will be coming home to them while still doing my job to protect the citizens and myself. I consider myself a very disciplined officer adhering closely to the law and department policy. But I wouldn't hestitate to fire as many rounds as I feel necessary (as safely as humanly possible) to stop someone. If that makes me appear to be a loose cannon, so be it. I assure you I am not.

LOL, there I went again! Another monster post. Please forgive me, when I get going I can't stop. I read the boards everyday and don't post alot, but when I do they're usually mininovels oh well.....later Patrick

 

>>>>Ford Man, I really like it. It is a sweet shooting weapon. We use a very fast round, lol I forgot what grain it is and the fps. It shoots very well and has nice balance. Will shoot through a windshield without much deflection and still hit the target inside. Our department shot thousands or rounds through the SIG 357 (and the SIG 9mm when we had it) testing it prior to purchasing them. The weapons were not cleaned during the tests and none of them jammed or malfunctioned. SIG makes a nice weapon, I had never shot or owned one before we went to them a few years ago.



[This message has been edited by JPF1715 (edited 02-27-2000).]

 

>>>>Did I mention I absoloutely love my FORD F150 pickup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

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99 F150 XLT SC 4x4 4.6 liter Deep Wedgewood Blue

Westin Nerf Bars , Lund Bug Deflector , Kenwood 10 disc CD changer, Extang Black Max soft bed cover, Bodyguard Bed Liner

 

You know what JPF1715, you are all right in my book!!!!

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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99

 

DUSTOFF

When I was in basic training in l968 we were taught to aim carefully and save ammo also. However, when we got to jungle training it was a whole new game. When you are being fired on from a thick jungle or while in one and cannot see your enemy, you have to use heavy fire to suppress it as you can see no one to aim at. Very different from fighting in a city or desert environment. I'll bet that if we ever end up in another jungle war, the spray method of suppressing fire will have to be used again.

Someone mentioned about the police getting the AR-15/M16s for use by patrol officers. Los Angeles county sheriffs and LAPD got some after the big bank robbery shootout. You are right about improper use of these weapons. They are very powerful for use in a populated area unless very careful. I have an AR-15 and do not like using it for plinking. Colt has a conversion kit to allow it to fire 22 long rifle rounds and I am going to convert it. Much safer and even more fun.

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2000 F150 SuperCab, Short Bed, 4X4, ORP, 5.4L, Auto Trans, 3.55LS, Captains Chairs with power drivers seat, rear slider, class III towing package, remote entry with alarm and just about everything you can get on this truck. Added a Ford bug deflecter, floor mats and a K&N filter.

 

Probably 125 grain, that's what makes the .357 Sig really shine.

 

Ron Kaltenbach,

I agree with you! There was plenty of 'spray and pray' from the U.N. troops and even our perimeter guards in Somalia.

Every situation is different!

Check out todays issue of USA TODAY...huge article on the 21st Century ARMY infantry soldier and the computer technolgy.


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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99

 

i have to agree with patrick on this one.

also when i went to germany with the army one of the first things we were taught was what to do if approached by a polizei. STOP, SHUT UP, and DO AS YOUR TOLD. if not you will be shot. we had a fellow get shot for crossing a railroad track. no questions were asked of the officers they went back to work and the defendant got a ride to the states.
same thing should apply here. i'm no angel not even close but when an officer says stop that's what i do.
this man died because of his own stupidity, thinking he could run or hide from the police. then realizing he couldn't he still refused to do as he was told. he wanted to be in charge of the situation by going for his wallet instead of freezing as told.
this is not a racial issue nor an issue of how many bullets it is simply a matter of the police doing their job. had he done as told he would be alive today.

 

Now if we can't be sure what the cops were thinking, we can't be sure what Diallo was thinking either. The bottom line is that they killed an innocent man. That could have been someone in your family, it could have been you. Well, maybe not, you probably have to be black. How can we let these men off and send the message to cops that they can kill with impunity by simply stating it was a mistake. A mistake that leaves someone dead cannot be put right. 41 bullets was excessive. PERIOD. Police have a hard and thankless job, and as these 4 men showed, not everyone has the courage or skill to do it. If the men were that jumpy and scared, then they shouldn't be cops. Their actions pretty much mark them as incompetent. The police must play by the rules and must hold themselves to a higher standard. They should be paid more, trained better and punnished severely if they betray the public trust by becomming violent, corrupt or lazy.

Wow, sorry about the ramble, I just hate it when people abuse their authority.

 

Wildchild, the victim was in the "vestibule" or front porch of his own residence. He was not running from police just attempting to enter his own home. Diallo also did not speak English and could not understand the commands given by the undercover officers who for all he knew might be trying to rob him. If you can't speak english, learn it or leave. Execution is not an option.

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99 F150 XLT Supercab Towing Package 5.4L Auto Two Tone Med Toreador Red/ Silver Power windows, locks, mirrors, driver's seat. Cruise, tilt wheel Alloys, Michelins, ARE topper Superchip / 2000 Chevy Silverado Ext cab 5.3, auto, Tow package, tilt, cruise, power windows,locks,side mirrors, alloy wheels.

 

Foster

I disagree with you. This could not happen to myself or anyone in my family. When a police office requests I do something in the course of his official duties, I, and any member of my family, know that you respond too his request. The fact that he may not have spoken english is irrelevant. I'm sure they have police wherever this guy came from and I'm sure he knew how to react there when confronted by them. You cannot blame the police for his lack ability to understand english. Police officers with guns drawn is an international language. As to what was in the cops minds, the jury, after hearing all the evidence, decided that what was in their minds was the proper performance of their duties as per procedure. Who is more innocent here, a nonresponsive possible suspect or police officers doing their duty as per procedure according to the jury, which included 4 blacks, including the jury foreman. As to the number of shots - if you have ever been shot at or the threat of such existed, you might think a little differently.

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2000 F150 SuperCab, Short Bed, 4X4, ORP, 5.4L, Auto Trans, 3.55LS, Captains Chairs with power drivers seat, rear slider, class III towing package, remote entry with alarm and just about everything you can get on this truck. Added a Ford bug deflecter, floor mats and a K&N filter.

 

wildchild...

You hit the nail on the head about the German Polezei! We were told the same thing. You smart off to these guys..and they will not hesitate to drag you out of your car and knock you to the ground! The Frankfurt airport is loaded with them..and they walk around in patrols..some armed with machine pistols/rifles.

I was stationed in Stuttgart (1991-1992) and then the unit moved to Ansbach (near Nurnberg 1992-1994).

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2000 F-150 XLT, 4x2, 5.4L Supercab, Styleside, Black with silver two-tone, 3.55, class III towing package with heavy duty cooling package, 4 wheel disk ABS, overhead console, sliding rear window, keyless entry, dark graphite interior, in dash CD, Pendaliner bedliner, K&N air filter, rubberized undercoating, cabin filtration system, Bugflector II, 5W-30 Mobil 1, engine build 10/4/99