You are trying to get me to say dead nuts That EVERY union worker is Better than Every Non union worker....when there are slackers everywhere..........what I am saying is union workers can't achieve scale pay and benefits without being quailified, educated, tested..

 

with a state license, why does he need a job? sounds like he has one and provides a few as well

 

Don't be fooled into thinking the most expensive company/contractor always results in the best quality of work...

- NCSU

 

A lot of the blame must rest on the UAW.....Sure GM, Ford, ect were dumb enough to give the UAW the contracts but they were almost blackmailed into it by having the UAW threaten to strike everytime they didn't get their way!!!!!!

At the time it was cheaper to give into the UAW than to allow the strike......

The UAW burned themselves here and I hope this causes reform......

Don't get me wrong....I'm all about workers rights....but 95% of pay AFTER your laid off???????? Thats just stupid...!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Union workers aren't better then non-union workers. If anything they're worse. They have the mindset that they know they are better and can put out crap work and get away with it. They know that the companies can't fire them unless they go through the union management and all this other garbage. To hell with all unions.

 

You have to remember the union is a business too. They have to do something to justify their existence, and the more money you make, the more money they make.

 

Except the non-union workers get fired, and the union slackers continue to make more than they deserve. Who's to say that one of those slackers can't lay down a bad weld that could lead to catastrophic failure?

That would be a license qualifying him as a professional, who can legally conduct whatever type of work they're licensed for, electrical, general contractor, etc.

As an engineer I must pass the Professional Engineering Exam before I can legally practice as an engineer, ie, signing off on plans and the like. Before I can even be eligible to take the PE Exam I must graduate from an accredited, four year college with an engineering degree, pass the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam upon graduation and have no less than 4 years work experience directly under the supervision of a registered PE. The National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying oversees this process and grants licenses to those who qualify.

- NCSU

 

Here a few points I've heard. Don't work for a car company, but they make sense to me.

1.) Retirement & Healthcare costs: Big three are still paying the salaries of retirees, and a large portion of their individual healthcare costs. This outflow of cash, without a return on the investment (work) hurts the Big 3. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to work for a company that offers full retirement after 20 - 30 years- but, like the dinosaur, they're all but extinct in every other field.

The Big 3 needs to rid itself of retirement plans, and adopt a 401K plan, and let their employees contribute to their own retirement (Yes, I'm sure they pay into retirement- but it's the investment that, if you live long enough, wil far outstrip what you pout into it). Consequently, once they walk off the assembly line, adios amigo, and I don't own you anything else.

2. Rethink executive compensation: Come on, Do you really think Ford's CEO will have to skate by on $1.00 a year? Sure, that might be his SALARY, but he'll probably net millions in "bonus" money. Maybe not this year, but if you got 20 - 30 million in binus money last year, you shoudln't need a salary for a few years. When I worked for a major employer in Plano, our CEO got $5M signing bonus, and a couple $5 - $10M bonuses over the course of the year. Then, when he left, he got a $50M golden parachute.

Look at the C-Level executives in other countries. They aren't compensated like that. Not in salary or bonuses.

3. Refocus efforts: What realy bit Ford, GM, and Chrysler in the butt hasn't been a downturn in the economy. It's been a rise in the price of gas. Ford, Chrysler, and to a lesser degree- GM, all put their profit eggs in the truck/SUV basket. When gas shot over $3.00/gallon- and it was costing $90 - $120 to fill the tanks, those vehicles started collecting dust on dealer lots, and began to fill up used car lots as owners moved from trucks & SUV's to cars. There is not a lot of profit in the cars, so even though units were moving, no profit was being made. Further, folks figured they coudl keep their Tahoe/Expedition if they paid it off, and gas wouldnt hurt so bad- so, people didn't trade their 2003 Expedition/Tahoe for the 2008 model.

Now that gas is less expensive, people won't quickly forget the screwing we took earlier this year. Their move to the big utes will be slower.

Box that in with union demands/expectations, the credit crunch (hard to get financed now), record job loss in the US, the highest unemployment level is 50 years, and the continuous outsourcing of good paying jobs from the US to overseas, and you have a recipe for an economy that's going to struggle to get off its knees anytiime soon.

People can't go out and buy $30K+ trucks when they don't have jobs.
People can't go out and buy $30K+ trucks when they can't get financed.
People can't go out and buy $30K+ trucks when they don't have cash money to pay for it.
People won't go out and by $30K trucks, if it's going to cost them $90 - $120 a week ($360 - $480/month) in gas, on top of their note ($500 - $600/month), insurance ($60 - $120/month) for the privledge of ownership.

Without a paradigm shift, I don't see GM, Ford, and Chrysler getting off their knees. Cars like the Chevy Volt might be able to do it, but at $40,000 a copy- it's no messiah. They need cars like the volt, for $20,000- then, maybe.

Possibilities???
They need to trim the fat from their wallets (lower executive compensation.

Get rid of those $75K/year floor sweepers and hire some $25K/year floor sweepers.

Find a way to lower healthcare costs or transfer more of the cost to the employees/retireees.

Restructure benefit pacakages for all new hires.

Restructure contracts with the UAW.

If UAW won't budge, then close northern plants, and relocate all those businesses from to Texas, Arizona, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc- hire and trian a bunch of folks with no union ties- and rebuild their business that way.

If you can't work with the UAW to rebuild the foundation, I say shake 'em loose. Be like Wal-Mart.

What happens to every Wal-Mart store that tries to unionize?

 

So, if having union workers guarantees that you will have a better product as you have stated. Why are the Ford's with the highest initial quality built in Mexican non-UAW plants? Remember, Initial Quality is the first 90 days of ownership; most problems are a direct result of the build quality not design or materials. It seems that your only reason for having a union (better quality product) doesn’t hold water. Now why should the consumer pay several thousand more for a product with no real measurable benefits?

 

Big, that post makes more sense to me then all the crap I've been hearing from the people who 'control' all this stuff!

Built, I have no problems with you wanting to get the most that you can get out of a company, but the basic laws of economics is if you are spending more then you are taking in, you won't be in business very long.... Then it all flows down hill, so don't complain when your company goes away...

I've never been part of a union, but I have worked with unions a long time ago when I installed artificial turf for a living. In some states, we had to hire only union carpet layer members for our local support when putting in a field. Our company crew consisted of about 5 people. We would hire about 5 locals to help. In those states that we HAD to hire union folks, they worked a solid 8 hours, took their breaks and lunch hours as prescribed and would not do a single thing to help with the job unless it was part of their "job description"... For example, we HAD to hire a union fork lift driver... Fine, but that driver would NOT get off his *** to adjust his own forks! Said "I don't have to do that because I'm union.." So, I had to waste a guy to follow him around and adjust his damn forks... After 8 hours, he was done for the day and we got about the same amount of work done in the remaining 4 hours with only 5 guys that we worked after the 5 union guys left then we did for their 8 hours...

Okay, I know it's still apples and oranges compared to the UAW and I do appreciate the need for the unions back when the workers were exploited and totally taken advantage of, but now a days, the job safety and equal rights is federal law... In my stereotyped, only know from the news and here-say feelings are is you union guys are just plain greedy.... Now, I'm not saying that I wouldn't do the same thing.... HELL yeah, I would sign an agreement giving me all those benefits and wages... But, when it ends up killing the company and you guys still go on strike, that's where I don't get it??

Who doesn't' want all that stuff, but it's a new time and a new era... Like was said... The dinosaurs had their time and during their time, they flourished... Where are they now?? DEAD and FOSSILS and the CRUDE OIL we now use!

Unions have done what they intended to do originally, but IMO, they are not needed any longer and once competition for actual JOBS is back in the scheme of things, union companies will always be at the mercy of the last union contract they sign.... Sad, because JOB competition was what really builds a country... Not what you can get out of it with the least amount of effort....

Okay, I'll get off my soap box and take the attacks!

Mitch

 

Contradictions only add more holes to your story

 

So we are to expect eh bloated union wage as the norm and forget what is considered industry standard. Unions have *** raped consumers for far too long. Im not puttin all honus on the union. I DO realize that overpaid suits exist as well. But what I am saying is Union workers are overpaid based on INDUSTRY STANDARDS. So if we are using your logic,... there should be an executive unions so those suits making 9 figures can get 15% more.

 

Bighersh and MitchF150 both great posts. I couldn't agree more.

 

UAW workers are the only ones who are seemingly incapable of seeing the reality of their situation and the absurdity of their contracts. Sometimes you get so close to a situation that your reality gets skewed......

By the way, Norfolk did a wonderful job putting my truck together, but that doesn't detract from the reality that Union contracts must be broken and brought into line with market conditions in order for the Big Three to survive over the long term.......

 

Construction unions here in my city helped kill a great reconstruction program because they demanded a certain percentage of the workers be union.

After months of haggling over the issue, the companies involved with the project scrapped it all together, and no one had work.

All because the Union group would not give in to allowing less Union workers in on the project, even though they had the majority of the work!

Unions were important many years ago when there were very few laws to protect workers from greedy companies. But I wonder if their time has come?

If this continues, we will no longer have Ford, Chrysler, or GM building cars in America. We will have a growing number of transplants from Toyota, Honda, Nissa, Mercedes, and BMW who do not open plants in Union states.