No offense taken Norm. I am not a professional mechanic just an enthusiastic hobby wrencher. But it does sound like Mikes statement is a little on the programmed side and implies that if it were not illegal he would gut his too. "He does have a shop at stake". Though he states the Environmental issue he doesn't feel strong enough about it to try and encourage it to be implemented on all vehicles "only for the ones that are under government jurisdiction".

As far as the environment lets look at the job of Catalytic converters.
What does it do?
1. It burns excess gases not spent in the combustion chamber.
1-A. On a properly tuned and timed engine the only gas expelled should be Carbon Dioxide.

2. A plugged catalytic converter is the result of soot build up, which are the Carbon-Dioxide deposits over time.
2-A. Great it did it's job.....But maybe they don’t plug up anymore???? That would be great but I don’t know!
But from an environmental point of view, isn't Carbon Dioxide the gas that trees and plants use for photosynthesis and through that process expelling Oxygen for us?

Now for my particular set up I should be shoving just under 3/4 of a ton of air through the combustion chambers. A stock vehicle is less than 1/4 of a ton. If you look at your engine as though it is a big air pump then you will want your exhaust to be capable of moving more air than the engine can pump out at peak load.

That being said If you hold a brand new Catalytic converter up to the sun and try to look through it you will see very little if any light, since light is thinner than air and the sun being the strongest light source on earth. Then if light cannot get through it, then how many P.S.I. will you have to generate to get the air through it? For every P.S.I. you have to generate there is a loss of CFM that you are unable to intake.
Note: A turbo muffler does not have a straight thru design and you will not see the image of the sun but it should be well lit up.

Using this logic combined with aerodynamics and weight distribution is how I currently get 26mpg on highway and 22 mpg in city for a personal Dailey average of 24.4 miles per gallon (Combination of City and Highway) on a 97 Ford Explorer 4X4, 4.0L V6, with an 8.4 second 0-60 and without any mechanical bolt-ons. I plan/hope to get an average of 20-22+MPG on the 5.4L Triton 2WD, S-Cab P/U with several bolt-ons and lots of precision porting and machining, then conservatively I should be in the low 7's upper 6 Sec. or better in the 0-60 as well. Though the Tritons advanced ignition may prove a challenge for this. But these are similar examples of the stats I have gotten for the past 12 years on all my vehicles. Including the muscle cars with almost twice the gas mileage and 25+% gain in HP and Torque over stock though out the RPM range. I contribute non-to any single product or modification; it is definitely a cooperation of all to achieve that.

When your burning that efficiently aside from the occasional bellows of smoke from the tires, I don’t see how the vehicle can be that bad for the environment instead it should be better for it than stock, almost as clean as us breathing in oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide ourselves. (In theory anyway.)

 

wow, thanks for the write-up PSS. Where in MO are you from?
Head over to www.ftwtrucks.com and check out the Missouri forum, youll like it.

 

I am in 45 mins east of Springfield. Thanks for the link I'll definatley join up there too. BTW Nice Trucks the 53 sounds like fun to drive and the 98 is similar to mine including the midnight blue paint job.

 

Nah, its Pacific Green... , and the 53 is great fun to drive, the ladies love it, but it only goes about 45 top end...the 'ol 3-on-the-tree and 5.14 rear end doesnt like high speeds.

Youll like FordTruckWorld, about 15 of us met up in Columbia last year, ate lunch, and talked trucks for about 2 hours. Search for the Columbia meet pics on FTW, or look on the chapter site between pages 15-18 and youll find it....it was alot of fun.

 

I guess if I would have put your name with the truck then I would have known it wasn't blue...LOL
Looks like they are talking some where in Illinois or maybe ST. Louis for the next meet.

My old 69 F-100 was three on the tree I loved driving it. It took me a year and a half to restore it but was a dailey driver during the process slowing things down alot. But it was a chick magnet even before it was finished and the ladies were always amazed and fasinated by the three on the tree. The only down side was many of my dates ended by me taking them to thier house and them telling thier dads about the three on the tree and starting great car talk with thier dads instead of making out with thier daughters. But it started many of long term relationships with thier dads even after ours had faded, I am still good friends with many of the dads of the girls I took out in that truck.

 

https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...hreadid=179578

Just do that, and thank me later

 

first of all you can not put split headers on an inline obd engine.unless they are 3-2-1 or 4-2-1.you only have one o2 sensor and it willnot read properly with half the exhaust goin through it.and as for a properly tuned engine only producing co2,the only way that would happen is if you were not using gas or any combustable material to power it.and you'd have to be running at 100% efficiency.anything that burns produces carbon monoxide and you will have left over hydrocarbons even on a brand new perfectly tuned car.they are not perfect so they don't run at 100%efficiency yet.and for cats not inhibitting performance.if you believe that,then you don't need to do anything other than put gas in your truck.wow 2 guys garage said it,yeah they're experts,hahaha.they know how to hook up nitrous and ALMOST know what it does.and for trucks,anybody who puts nitrous on a diesel is a moron.700 bucks for 15 horsepower.and that was with propane injection,exhaust,chip and all kinds of other crap.that is just dumb.but even without cats my truck only puts out about 75 ppm hydrocarbons.and yes i checked it with a $35,000 sun diagnostic machine.

 

I know exactly what your saying, the dads love it. All the daughters say is stuff like "Its shiny" and my favorite: "It smells like gasoline inside"

Haha, if they only knew anything about trucks or the amount of work that went into that truck, and that the sweet smell of gas/antifreeze/oil/sweat is what the inside is SUPPOSED to smell like...

 

Green_98,
Ahh yes the smell, The 69 was great for that because the gas tank was behind the seat so the smell of gas was always in the distance. LOL If it got very strong no one would smoke for fear it might have sprung a leak! LOL Most of the time though it was just running a little rich and the Carb. needed some attention. LOL

Way fast witey you are absolutley correct I did get my gases mixed up! My deepest apologies That does make the post sound very funny though! LOL
You are also absolutely correct as long as you say that you can not do something, then no you will not be able to do it, and I say to that !!!! Even my daughters know better than to say that they can not do something, they know that once you've taken that road that no YOU won't be able to, yet everyone else is probably already doing it. For all out there who say no you can't or it is imposable to do something... then I say you will continue to smell our exhaust as that’s all you will ever see of us that ARE doing it already is our tail lights and exhaust pipes. LOL

For Jeep 4.0 inline six currentley up to year 2003 Pace Setter and DynoMax both among other makers offer complete tru dual exhaust kits including dual out-let headers. Your telling me that nobody has done this for these I-6 Ford guys yet? I knew there was a reason I hadn't bought a Ford in a while now you remind me after I have already done it, thanks alot man way to look out...You wait till I see my buddy that talked me into test driving this one...LOL Just kidding! Mines the 5.4 there had better be more options available for me!

As far as NOS I say Bolt your bottles on if that’s how you want to make HP it makes no diff to me Horse Power is Horse Power, I say get it any way that your resources allow you too! Only the jealous ones that can't afford it will complain. However my resources are not that great and I could not afford to keep all of the bottles full in all of my vehicles because I know that I would not be able to keep from hitting it at every stop light!!! So I'll find other ways to cool my engine down so the Air Fuel mixture is cooler maybe like getting the hot exhaust away from the engine as soon as possible for starters??? LOL

As far as 2 guys garage, I do like that show and watch it whenever I'm not in my own garage working on my own projects. I also watch Power Block when I can too. yet I have failed to ever witness any of them do anything more than bolt on upgrades with advise or offer sponsor induced promotions and manufacturers advice. Sorry but that’s NOT working on your car, nor reliable advise that is just bolting something on and sponsor promotions. Or watching someone bolt something on and listening to sponsor promotions. All depending upon your position in the scenario. If bolting something on is your idea of working on your vehicle...HE HA HE HA HE.... and like Wity said you just need to be pumping your gas and take your vehicles to a shop for repairs. However I have learned easier ways to bolt things on from all of those shows as well as gained design ideas from them, and some fabrication tips from the shows on Power Block!

Of course it is always totally logical to listen to everything you hear on TV. They couldn't have been taking a dig on their competition on an opposing network such as "Stacey" from Trucks TV on Spike network and his sponsors Bully Dog Gear & Banks Power for diesels! Which Stacey built a 2004 Ford F-350 Diesel like the one wity describe and showed great performance gains from them. (Wink) LOL "Just imagine if it hadn't of gained a thing or loss performance, that would be reality TV!" Wonder if Bully Dog or Banks would sponsor him anymore...HMMM
You especially want to listen to everything TV personalities say if you know that they are not for profit and wouldn't say anything just because they got someone "or maybe didn't get someone" for a sponsor.

On a serious note though, it's like Politics, PC tech, or anything else, there is a lot being said out there... you have to sort through the B.S. and find what seems logical to you and hopefully you are correct in the end. If headers do not seem logical on late models to you and Cats do, then I apologize. However headers still do to me, and cats. still do not. So we would just have to agree to disagree on this or we can... take it to the track! But I know my 2000 F-100 5.4L will have headers, and no cats even with the obd II and I have even considered going with a true full quad header and pipes "that’s two split headers and four exhaust pipes" like my 81 Pontiac Trans Am currently already has with the OBD I.

As far as new cars not being clean that was pointed out in the late 90's by Hot Rod Magazine when they pulled a 68 Camaro out of the junk yard tuned it up and timed it out then put it on the sniffer against a brand new Camaro right off the show room floor and the 68 scored better. GO American MUSCLE!!!

Best advice I can give anyone is to always consider your sources "most of us here are just hobby wrenchers, no one here is going to turn a buck whether anyone does use the options we give or not, we just try to help each other out for free" also after you wrench a while and try several things, you'll figure it out it's all pretty basic and the same operations in every internal combustion engine. (Except RX rotary engines)...who knows there? Your guess is as good as mine, but looking here your probabley looking in the wrong place for that one anyway...LOL

 

There are a lot of other gasses released even on a properly tuned engine. There is Carbon Monoxide and Oxides of Nitrogen to name a few. The catalytic does a lot more than you think. Carbon Dioxide is what plants use for respiriation but too much is bad and the other gases will kill you and the plants. I agree that Mike is coming from a sales point of view but TrucksTV and Two Guys garage both showed with vacuum and pressure gauges how free flowing our cats really are and if you think you need free-er flowing cats Magnaflows are only 85 bucks. Cheap considering the consequences of running without cats.

 

It's funny that... dare I say it for fear of my neighbors beating me up! In a small minute way wish we had sniffers here so I can see how my cars and trucks actually are performing. Is there a cheap home model for less than $100 that can be bought?
Either I would change my view, or would have some documented bragging rights.

I really hadn't considered money as a part of the equation yet, $85 each sounds cheap but would add up to an additional $340 bucks If I go with Quad headers and exhaust system or $170 just to replace OEM and thats only on the one vehicle too. It's hard for me to spend that much for something that I only 1/2 believe in.

It still reminds me alot of the R-12 refrigerant debate and how they claim it destroys the Ozone. Which it does when it comes in contact with it but unfortunately it is heavier than air so I don't know how it could make it up to our ozone. Lobbyist still pressed congress hard enough that USA residents can no longer use it. Or at least in an estimated 2 years before the supply is totally depleted.

If the consequences of running an internal combustion engine are that bad then your right, money shouldn't be an object nor anything else we should all quit driving and buy bicycles. As well as get rid of our lawn mowers and weed eaters, and maintain our yards manually. Some of us burn wood for heat so we will have to get rid of chainsaws and use axes. I retract the last one we should all switch to non-combustible materials for heat and use something like electric heat. (burrrr) We definitely shouldn't be riding our motorcycles on the weekends for the reason of for fun and to relax. Especially considering that ALL of these luxuries that we take for granted and over look as part of the equation do not have Catalytic Converters.
I fear that if these are taken from us in the USA... The Government will start acquiring tax revenue elsewhere to compensate and we could not afford the taxes on our houses anymore and/or the system would fall and Thunder Dome future, here we come! Historically our great nation is currently in between the 4th and 5th stage out of the 6 stages of a nations life cycle. I personally think we have a good thing going and don't want to rush through these last 2 stages for my kids and grand kids’ sake.
With all of this in mind it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, the only thing that throws it off balance for me is my selfish desire for more power.

In closing we now have environment, politics, quality of life, and performance to consider. (Not particularly in that order ) Is there another part to the equation on making a logical decision that should be considered?

 

Why waste your time and money on a 300 cubic inch inline 6 cylinder engine? Sell the truck and get one with a V8, if you want it to sound good. I have to go with Red from that 70's Show. Any one who removes a perfectly good cat for performance gains is a Dumb***.

 

Actually a lot of the racers build I6's for drag cars. I cant remeber which way it goes but the Ford guys either put the 240cu crank in a 300 cu. Or a 300cu crank in a 240 cu engine. Whichever way they do it then it pushes the pistons right up to .008 or so of the head giving ungodley amounts of compression. Course they have to build the rest of the motor too. Usally with triple duece or equivelent intake, (they have dubbed this with the nick name "Two Six Packs To Go") then with cams, and kryptonite internal componets, Etc. Those I6's go against and have a good chance of beating the V8's in the open class especially comparing dollar for dollar invested! Of course they are not road legal due to horsepower and tire restrictions alone. But any one who thinks they are Bad just because they have a V8 under the hood are the Dumb A**e* and will likely lose a lot of money to the 6 bangers if they would put thier money where there mouth is! You can not beat the Torque & Horsepower to weight ratio of an I6 with a V8. I do have a V8 Myself but it's for the raw horsepower it's not and won't be built for speed.

 

For what it's worth, I had a gutted cat on my 81 Bronco 400 CID 2BBL. I didn't gut it, but when I peered inside while replacing the muffler, there was absolutely nothing inside. I yanked the empty shell off and put a 2-1/2 I/O high flow unit from Dynomax on. The exhaust note was a little bit quieter, the idle seemed to be smoother, and much to my surprise, I gained torque on the low end without losing any (noticeable) top end power. In the past, I have experimented with the straight pipe method on a couple different cars and two bikes. I was never happy with the open pipe (no muffler) setup. Say what you will about exhaust restriction, but I'm not driving a dragster or anything with a turbo or blower. I'm with Mike on this one. After my "gutted cat" experience, I would never even entertain the thought of going catless on any street vehicle putting out less than 500 HP ATRW, but that's just me. In the end, it's your vehicle. You do things your way, and I do them mine. Just my 2 cents.

SL

 

Bingo!!! Some real world logic to this thread!
Thank you snappylips!

I also agree with the mufflers on a dailey driver. Just my 2 cents too, in my own opinion maybe I'm getting old, but I never gained anything besides noise and a head ache from vehicles with straight pipes. You wouldn't think so or know by listening to them but even certified NASCAR, NHRA, or SCAA, circuit cars require mufflers on the race cars before they are certified to race anywhere. Then most tracks look for them in the tech shed before they are allowed on the track.