So you have a pilot in the family too !! awesome !! yes they are a rare breed indeed. My husband flies the P-3 Orion. What does your step son fly?

I understand about the start in N, if it doesn't start in P, just knock it back to N and see if that helps. And if it does then it could be the DTR.

We have over 112,000 miles on it, as we move like every 6-9 months during flight school, and we always tow my Geo Metro behind, and I am just grateful that she is still working ! the Ford guy told me that he is very impressed with the inside, he told me that we really cared for her and she is in great condition for the amount of miles on her.
I will certainly let you know how I go today...!! but she is so temperamental sometimes she will start all day long !!!

 

My Sister's having intermittant starting problems on her f250. So far, no one knows what's wrong - only that it could be VERY expensive to fix! She tows a horse trailer, so at least she has a "ride" if it totally quits on her.

Alastair flies C130's. He's at Point Mugu now, but, he was at Brunswick, Maine before that. Since I see you're in Maine, I suspect your husband's at Brunswick too. Alastair is a reservist - he also flies for United.

Hope you can get the starting problem resolved soon, and that it doesn't cost too much.

- Jack

 

Fed up !,

1st : BEst wishes for a speedy & save return for your husband, and tell him THANK YOU from me.
When ever I see a military person on my flight at the airport, I use my status to upgrade them to 1st class at the gate if there is room. They go on the list with my 1K status as the pecking order. More then once I have bumped a Premier Exec doing this .

On to your problem :
You seem to have a lot of good advice here.

The list :
- Battery - I would say non issue, s it starts once it gets its mind to it.

- Key ( PATS, etc all ) - This would be a crank no start.

- DTR - Test in Neutral when it has a problem. Could be corroded and taking a second in the Park position. Something you are working towards.

- Starter solenoid - This could be slow to pull in, or take a second to pull in al the way. I would not want you to test this, as it is jumper a high AMP connection with a screw driver.

- Starter ( and the cables ) - no 'wizzing' or grinding sound, I would say it is OK, once it gets power.

- Fuel Pump & Fuel Pump Relay - This would be a crank no start issue here ( had it on my 2001 ) so I would say both are OK.

There are a few tests with a meter that could be done, to see where things are at, don't know if you have one around the house. This is a safe way to check things.
If you have one, and are interested in getting a little dirty, and have someone to turn the key for you, we can do some testing.
Else, if you want the thoughts for an independent mechanic, let us know as well.
Stay away from the dealer, suggesting replacing parts without a diagnoses is just stupid, and they are soaking you for shop time. There are choice words for people like them in general, let alone the spouse of a military member. They will rot in hell for it, some where around ring 7, 3rd trench ( for you Dante fans ).

Good luck, and let us know how you want to move forward with this, sorry for the delay, work has been rather busy this week.

-steve

 

Great to see you on this thread Steve!

If I understand you, you feel it's either the DTR or the starter relay, right? (Just trying to clarify things for Fed_Up). The other items you discussed seem to be eliminated per the symptoms she describes.

But, is it possible the ignition switch has corroded/faulty contacts so that it doesn't send primary voltage to the solenoid? I know this is a long shot, but it would be a "no crank" (no "click") situation too, wouldn't it?.

And, just so we cover this, I suppose the dealership COULD have "tested" the DTR, but since the problem is intermittent, it may have tested good? (Of course I have no idea what the test involves - I know I'd try to move it through the various positions and test for continuity/low resistance in P and N).

Again, thanks for jumping in and your support of our Military brothers and sisters. Things sure are different now than they were when I came back from Vietnam.

- Jack

 

Jack,

That is my thought, starter motor relay ( sorry called is old school, solenoid ) or DTR.
I guess it could be the coil in the starter itself ?? Have not seen that one, and would put it low on the list ( EVTM shows a coil in the starter motor and the contacts from the other Red cable go to the motor itself, like a motor starter for low voltage control of 3 phase motors ? )

I guess Fed Up would have to try to find a time it usually happens ( first thing in the AM, etc ) and have someone help with a meter.

Put the meter from the output of the starter relay ( red wire to the starter motor ) and ground. Turn the key, and see if there is +12V on that contact on the relay. This would be akin to the coil is taking a second to pull in, but finally does.

Same test with 2 meters would be one in the place noted above, and the other on the input to the coil on the starter relay. The Tan w/ Red stripe wire is the output of the DTR, showing if the DTR is going flaky.

I guess the contacts on the ign cylinder could be an issue ( dirty / corroded contacts ) and it takes a second for voltage to get through all the insulting crud on it. This is the Dark Blue w/ orange stripe to the DTR.

Testing the DTR is straight forward, section 307-01 of the workshop manual.

Maybe have someone check the DTR connector on the transmission to make sure it is not coated with oil / filled with dirty rain water??? Don't know if this could be a good starting place. Don't know if there is anyone around the base that could help with this. I woudl suspect that this clean, considering the dealer tested it. Should be filled with dielectric grease, and obviously cleaner then the remainder of the truck.

Dad never talks about what it was like when he came back, then again he looked like a mummy when he came back from over seas. Sorry you had to put up with those self centered hippies when you came back, and thank Jane Fonda. Sat next to her on a flight from ATL once, I kept my mouth shut, but later found out she was doing the Hanoi Jane conference at Columbia downtown. Glad she was late and missed it, she does not need to be spreading that crap around 40 years later, she did enough damage the last time.

 

Good grief! This thing is a total Rube Goldberg!

I finally looked at my Haynes manual (I know it's not much, but it's all I have).

According to it, the starter relay (a true relay) is in the fuse box. (At least in 2004+ trucks). This evidentally gets a start signal through the DTR from the ignition switch. At least that's what the wiring diagram shows. The text says something a bit different.

Now, the relay sends a signal to the starter solenoid, which is mounted on the starter motor, and that must be the coil you are seeing there.

Haynes also says that if the starter is getting voltage but doesn't operate, the likely cause is a bad solenoid, but, the starter/solenoid assembly should be removed for bench testing. There are scenarios then that involve bad solenoids, bad motors or bad both.

I'm also getting the impression that you replace the starter and solenoid as a "unit", even if only one is bad.

But I'm still having a problem with the starter or the solenoid being intermittent. Even relays are rarely intermittent in my experience. They either work or they don't. But dirty switches can be intermittent - I've seen that.

The DTR and ignition are switches.

- Jack

 

Oh My goodness ! thank you so much for the advice, I think I am going to print everything out and give it to the Ford mechanic and tell him this is what he should be looking at !! of course I dont have a clue with anything mechanical...I am a girlie girl...I do try though !
Jack, I do live in Brunswick ! we have been stationed here for 8 months, and should be here until the base closes, it is on the BRAC list !
I used the truck for the last two days and she has been fine !!! started every single time ! just first thing in the A.M she just delays a little bit. When I turn the key, but she eventually gets there.
Sscully, thank you so much for your advice, and for the wonderful treatment of the military people on your flights ! First Class treatment !
I just wish that I was a little bit more mechanically minded with all of this, I hate being the woman with out a clue when it comes to the Ford people...and they have to explain it to me like I am a small child.
So do you guys think I should just get the DTR replaced? do you know if that the were just in the steering column a few months back...replacing the directional switch....and since then this problem arose, and also the other day when it was raining...I put the wind screen wipers on fast and washer fluid squirted out at the same time !! YIKES !! so I put them back on slow...
So I am not totally convinced that something has gone wrong in that area?
Thank you guys !!!

 

It COULD be some fault they created in the steering column, since that's where the ignition switch is, but I sort of doubt it.

I know your truck is an earlier model than mine, but I imagine they haven't changed the design that much. The multi-function switch for the wipers is on the left side of the column (in mine) and it supplies a completely separate wiring harness than the one for the ignition switch. Are you sure you didn't "pull" on the wiper switch as you moved it to "fast"? (That turns on the washers).

The real problem is not that you're a woman, the problem is that the fault is not continuous. It's damned hard (no other way to express it) to diagnose a problem that only shows up once in a while.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to just drive your other car most of the time. Leave the problem for your husband to take care of after he gets home. And remember, us guys have to have the opportunity to deal with problems like these or we stop feeling "macho"! (See, if he thinks you don't need him, it'll hurt his ego. And us pilots NEED our egos!)

- Jack