E85 and canned tunes
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From: so fla
two things first mike i agree with you i remember bill from php (maybe mike troyer i can't remember) posting something about other than the computer and tune there was pretty much no difference between Flex fuel truck and non flex fuel trucks.
also mike i swear there diablo made a E85 predator for mustangs.
also mike i swear there diablo made a E85 predator for mustangs.
Just 99-06 GM trucks.
Now, do I have LOTS of guys running around on E85? Yes.
Just last week I helped a buddy convert (by convert, I mean filled the tank with) to E85 in his 1993 Mustang. It has a 03 Cobra motor and 76 mm Hellion turbo kit, and is going to be an animal on that $2.39/gallon race gas!
Next one is a 99 Vette with a 6.0 and twin 67 mm Turbos that we plan to make 1100-1200 rwhp with.
There is a Trans Am street car around here with a 422" LSX with twin 78s that has gone 7.90s at over 180 MPH on pump E85, at over 3800# in street trim
Am I an E85 fan.....ummm...yeah!
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From: In the fast lane from LA to Tokyo...
Yes, for GM vehicles that were NOT built as FFVs.
Id say we have been at the forefront of E85 tuning for quite a while now
My buddy Andy Wicks (dynotuneUSA) is a huge E85 guy from SD, and everything he touches gets a tank full of corn.
He used to have a great sit (rune85.com) that had a complete teardown of the engine and fuel system on an old late 80s GM truck, that had been run 0n E85 for over 100,000 miles.
Every myth ever told about E85 was busted in this teardown, from the perfectly working stock GM fuel pump, to the non corroded lines, to the injectors which were flowed and tested, to the non scored cylinder walls, etc.
This whole 'certified' thing is political BS.
Surely you guys can see through all the political BS surrounding a cheap, subsidized, home brewed fuel in our oil run world....?
Nothing proper tuning cant compensate for
Id say we have been at the forefront of E85 tuning for quite a while now
My buddy Andy Wicks (dynotuneUSA) is a huge E85 guy from SD, and everything he touches gets a tank full of corn.
He used to have a great sit (rune85.com) that had a complete teardown of the engine and fuel system on an old late 80s GM truck, that had been run 0n E85 for over 100,000 miles.
Every myth ever told about E85 was busted in this teardown, from the perfectly working stock GM fuel pump, to the non corroded lines, to the injectors which were flowed and tested, to the non scored cylinder walls, etc.
This whole 'certified' thing is political BS.
Surely you guys can see through all the political BS surrounding a cheap, subsidized, home brewed fuel in our oil run world....?
Nothing proper tuning cant compensate for
Great guy and really likes to tune vehicles.
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From: Among javelinas and scorpions in Zoniestan
Okey Dokey - Mike, I think you're saying as long as the A/F ratio can be enriched appropriately, everything else is moot? If the seals and other similar components can stand up to the alcohol, I'd have to accept you are right.
Still, I wish we could get the alcohol component from a source that wasn't such a "land degrading" crop as corn (which is also an important food source). I remain hopeful for alcohol from algae and other, less damaging sources.
- Jack
Still, I wish we could get the alcohol component from a source that wasn't such a "land degrading" crop as corn (which is also an important food source). I remain hopeful for alcohol from algae and other, less damaging sources.
- Jack
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There are some things about E85 which are not myths.
- E85 has less energy content per gallon and results in significantly less mileage. Government and private studies back this up. The only studies which don't... are by corn/ethanol groups or other groups/individuals with a vested financial interest in E85 (big surprise). (Of course Diablo is going to push E85.... its a good way to sell more tuners with E85 tuning as a feature)
- Flex fuel vehicles also have an alcohol sensor so they can adjust fuel/timing tables as needed. Non-flex fuel vehicles doesn't have this. E85 is actually E70 in the winter due to the gas content needed for cold starts.
- Flex fuel versions of Ford vehicles tend to use higher flowing injectors than their non-flex versions to deal with the added fuel flow without raising the duty cycle of the injectors.
- Corn based E85 is not commercially viable. It can't compete even with subsidies given its lower mileage. Often times when you consider the reduced mileage of E85 it costs more to operate with it. E85 usually results in about a 25-30 percent reduction in mileage but only a 15% reduction in costs (the actual energy content difference is about 27% less). Apparently it wasn't commercially viable enough to keep rune85.com going.
- One tuner's experience with a single GM engine proves nothing except that (perhaps) the materials in that specific application where ethanol compatible. Its a scientific fact (anyone with even high school level chemistry can figure out why) that alcohol is more corrosive to many materials than gasoline.
- To get any true return on E85 you need to increase compression. Its why E85 works great with properly tuned supercharged vehicles. Vehicles with gasoline compression ratios are wasting money. You'll often see boosted vehicles load up an E85 tune for the track... but they'd better have injectors which can handle the extra fuel flow required.
- E85 has less energy content per gallon and results in significantly less mileage. Government and private studies back this up. The only studies which don't... are by corn/ethanol groups or other groups/individuals with a vested financial interest in E85 (big surprise). (Of course Diablo is going to push E85.... its a good way to sell more tuners with E85 tuning as a feature)
- Flex fuel vehicles also have an alcohol sensor so they can adjust fuel/timing tables as needed. Non-flex fuel vehicles doesn't have this. E85 is actually E70 in the winter due to the gas content needed for cold starts.
- Flex fuel versions of Ford vehicles tend to use higher flowing injectors than their non-flex versions to deal with the added fuel flow without raising the duty cycle of the injectors.
- Corn based E85 is not commercially viable. It can't compete even with subsidies given its lower mileage. Often times when you consider the reduced mileage of E85 it costs more to operate with it. E85 usually results in about a 25-30 percent reduction in mileage but only a 15% reduction in costs (the actual energy content difference is about 27% less). Apparently it wasn't commercially viable enough to keep rune85.com going.
- One tuner's experience with a single GM engine proves nothing except that (perhaps) the materials in that specific application where ethanol compatible. Its a scientific fact (anyone with even high school level chemistry can figure out why) that alcohol is more corrosive to many materials than gasoline.
- To get any true return on E85 you need to increase compression. Its why E85 works great with properly tuned supercharged vehicles. Vehicles with gasoline compression ratios are wasting money. You'll often see boosted vehicles load up an E85 tune for the track... but they'd better have injectors which can handle the extra fuel flow required.
Last edited by DigitalMarket; Aug 26, 2010 at 10:28 PM.
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From: so fla
There are some things about E85 which are not myths.
- E85 has less energy content per gallon and results in significantly less mileage. Government and private studies back this up. The only studies which don't... are by corn/ethanol groups or other groups/individuals with a vested financial interest in E85 (big surprise). (Of course Diablo is going to push E85.... its a good way to sell more tuners with E85 tuning as a feature)
- Flex fuel vehicles also have an alcohol sensor so they can adjust fuel/timing tables as needed. Non-flex fuel vehicles doesn't have this. E85 is actually E70 in the winter due to the gas content needed for cold starts.
- Flex fuel versions of Ford vehicles tend to use higher flowing injectors than their non-flex versions to deal with the added fuel flow without raising the duty cycle of the injectors.
- Corn based E85 is not commercially viable. It can't compete even with subsidies given its lower mileage. Often times when you consider the reduced mileage of E85 it costs more to operate with it. E85 usually results in about a 25-30 percent reduction in mileage but only a 15% reduction in costs (the actual energy content difference is about 27% less). Apparently it wasn't commercially viable enough to keep rune85.com going.
- One tuner's experience with a single GM engine proves nothing except that (perhaps) the materials in that specific application where ethanol compatible. Its a scientific fact (anyone with even high school level chemistry can figure out why) that alcohol is more corrosive to many materials than gasoline.
- To get any true return on E85 you need to increase compression. Its why E85 works great with properly tuned supercharged vehicles. Vehicles with gasoline compression ratios are wasting money. You'll often see boosted vehicles load up an E85 tune for the track... but they'd better have injectors which can handle the extra fuel flow required.
- E85 has less energy content per gallon and results in significantly less mileage. Government and private studies back this up. The only studies which don't... are by corn/ethanol groups or other groups/individuals with a vested financial interest in E85 (big surprise). (Of course Diablo is going to push E85.... its a good way to sell more tuners with E85 tuning as a feature)
- Flex fuel vehicles also have an alcohol sensor so they can adjust fuel/timing tables as needed. Non-flex fuel vehicles doesn't have this. E85 is actually E70 in the winter due to the gas content needed for cold starts.
- Flex fuel versions of Ford vehicles tend to use higher flowing injectors than their non-flex versions to deal with the added fuel flow without raising the duty cycle of the injectors.
- Corn based E85 is not commercially viable. It can't compete even with subsidies given its lower mileage. Often times when you consider the reduced mileage of E85 it costs more to operate with it. E85 usually results in about a 25-30 percent reduction in mileage but only a 15% reduction in costs (the actual energy content difference is about 27% less). Apparently it wasn't commercially viable enough to keep rune85.com going.
- One tuner's experience with a single GM engine proves nothing except that (perhaps) the materials in that specific application where ethanol compatible. Its a scientific fact (anyone with even high school level chemistry can figure out why) that alcohol is more corrosive to many materials than gasoline.
- To get any true return on E85 you need to increase compression. Its why E85 works great with properly tuned supercharged vehicles. Vehicles with gasoline compression ratios are wasting money. You'll often see boosted vehicles load up an E85 tune for the track... but they'd better have injectors which can handle the extra fuel flow required.
Will it result in a drop in mileage, yes.
When properly tuned for E85 the drop is not as significant as you claim, more like 20%. Is it great for everyones daily driver? Not necessarily. But it is nice to have a choice at the pump, especially when it is supporting a fuel made in the USA, which supports US farmers and US jobs.
Ive never seen such a study trying to claim E85 does not have less energy content than Gas, that seems to be a commonly accepted fact. When we build an FI car for E85, the entire fuel system is oversized in the name of having proper fuel capacity.
Since it is high school level chemistry, rather than spew internet 'facts', please enlighten the discussion with the specific components you believe will corrode with E85 use. Everyone 'talks' about it, but I have yet to see any such proof....
Do you work in the Oil Industry??
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Lifted from a 2007 F150 Owner's Guide:
Pure ethanol is the alcohol which is the intoxicating agent in liquor, beer
and wine. It is distilled from the fermentation of plants such as field corn
and sugar cane. When ethanol is produced for use in motor fuels, a small
amount of gasoline is added to make it unfit for beverage use.
The resulting ethanol blend is called denatured fuel ethanol meaning that it is
denatured with 2% to 5% gasoline and is suitable for automotive use.
During the summer season, fuel ethanol may contain a maximum of 85%
denatured ethanol (Ed85) and 15% unleaded gasoline.
The fuel ethanol has a higher octane rating than unleaded regular or premium gasoline and this allows the design of engines with greater efficiency and power. Winter blends may contain up to 75% denatured ethanol (Ed75) and up to 25% unleaded gasoline to enhance cold engine starts. Severely cold
weather may require additional measures for reliable starting. Refer to
Cold Weather Starting in the Driving chapter.
Ethanol is more chemically active than gasoline. It corrodes some metals
and causes some plastic and rubber components to swell, break down or
become brittle and crack, especially when mixed with gasoline. Special
materials and procedures have been developed for flexible fuel vehicles
and the dispensers used by ethanol fuel providers.
Flexible fuel components and standard unleaded gasoline fuel
components are not interchangeable. If your vehicle is not
serviced in accordance with flexible fuel vehicles procedures, damage
may occur and your warranty may be invalidated.
When refueling always shut the engine off and never allow
sparks or open flames near the filler neck. Never smoke while
refueling. Fuel vapor is extremely hazardous under certain conditions.
Care should be taken to avoid inhaling excess fumes.
The flow of fuel through a fuel pump nozzle can produce static
electricity, which can cause a fire if fuel is pumped into an
ungrounded fuel container.
MGD
Pure ethanol is the alcohol which is the intoxicating agent in liquor, beer
and wine. It is distilled from the fermentation of plants such as field corn
and sugar cane. When ethanol is produced for use in motor fuels, a small
amount of gasoline is added to make it unfit for beverage use.
The resulting ethanol blend is called denatured fuel ethanol meaning that it is
denatured with 2% to 5% gasoline and is suitable for automotive use.
During the summer season, fuel ethanol may contain a maximum of 85%
denatured ethanol (Ed85) and 15% unleaded gasoline.
The fuel ethanol has a higher octane rating than unleaded regular or premium gasoline and this allows the design of engines with greater efficiency and power. Winter blends may contain up to 75% denatured ethanol (Ed75) and up to 25% unleaded gasoline to enhance cold engine starts. Severely cold
weather may require additional measures for reliable starting. Refer to
Cold Weather Starting in the Driving chapter.
Ethanol is more chemically active than gasoline. It corrodes some metals
and causes some plastic and rubber components to swell, break down or
become brittle and crack, especially when mixed with gasoline. Special
materials and procedures have been developed for flexible fuel vehicles
and the dispensers used by ethanol fuel providers.
Flexible fuel components and standard unleaded gasoline fuel
components are not interchangeable. If your vehicle is not
serviced in accordance with flexible fuel vehicles procedures, damage
may occur and your warranty may be invalidated.
When refueling always shut the engine off and never allow
sparks or open flames near the filler neck. Never smoke while
refueling. Fuel vapor is extremely hazardous under certain conditions.
Care should be taken to avoid inhaling excess fumes.
The flow of fuel through a fuel pump nozzle can produce static
electricity, which can cause a fire if fuel is pumped into an
ungrounded fuel container.
MGD
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From: Chicago, IL
The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests."
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From: so fla
mike you may wanna make sure that the tuners at diablo know this....
The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests."
The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests."
At the same time, I have watched enough of these cars be tuned on E85 and have seen the incredible amounts of timing E85 will tolerate, so regardless of its rated octane, its resistance to detonation is awesome, as is it ability to keep making power with more and more timing.
..And thats all that really counts.
Again, I'm not trying to argue that this is a good fuel for a stock/bolt on daily driver, unless you get it at the really cheap prices in the mid-west. BUT, if you are looking to make good, reliable, safe power, on cheap pump fuel, E85 is the ULTIMATE solution.
There really is way too much false info regarding the use of E85 on the internet, just as there is on any other subject.
I find far too often people have lots to say about it without having ever touched the stuff
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From: so fla
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f384...rbo666-576972/
Perfect example of a stock car that was built for E85.
There are dozens of bone stock Neon SRT4s running around making 300 whp with just a tank of E85 and some good tuning! (thats about +60 over stock)
Perfect example of a stock car that was built for E85.
There are dozens of bone stock Neon SRT4s running around making 300 whp with just a tank of E85 and some good tuning! (thats about +60 over stock)
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From: Chicago, IL
Thats interesting, and certainly something I have never seen before.
At the same time, I have watched enough of these cars be tuned on E85 and have seen the incredible amounts of timing E85 will tolerate, so regardless of its rated octane, its resistance to detonation is awesome, as is it ability to keep making power with more and more timing.
..And thats all that really counts.
At the same time, I have watched enough of these cars be tuned on E85 and have seen the incredible amounts of timing E85 will tolerate, so regardless of its rated octane, its resistance to detonation is awesome, as is it ability to keep making power with more and more timing.
..And thats all that really counts.
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From: Chicago, IL
here is the link i think a moderator should post this in a sticky and call it "E85 Info."
http://ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/dd9e74ce1..._rbm6bdgh3.pdf
http://ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/dd9e74ce1..._rbm6bdgh3.pdf
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I thought this thread had died a while back, glad to see its still around. Lots of good info. It has deviated away a little from the OP, but thats ok, it now helps support another thread I started a while back. https://www.f150online.com/forums/ge...ore-power.html
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Im not here pushing E85 for any reason other than to me, it is an AWESOME, CHEAP, 105 OCTANE, pump fuel.
Will it result in a drop in mileage, yes.
When properly tuned for E85 the drop is not as significant as you claim, more like 20%. Is it great for everyones daily driver? Not necessarily. But it is nice to have a choice at the pump, especially when it is supporting a fuel made in the USA, which supports US farmers and US jobs.
Will it result in a drop in mileage, yes.
When properly tuned for E85 the drop is not as significant as you claim, more like 20%. Is it great for everyones daily driver? Not necessarily. But it is nice to have a choice at the pump, especially when it is supporting a fuel made in the USA, which supports US farmers and US jobs.
Since it is high school level chemistry, rather than spew internet 'facts', please enlighten the discussion with the specific components you believe will corrode with E85 use. Everyone 'talks' about it, but I have yet to see any such proof....
Specific components are those made of zinc, brass, zinc plated steel, lead, tin and aluminum. Stainless, iron and bronze are resistant. Rubber, polyurethane and nylon.
Additionally, as you likely know, alcohol is hydroscopic and E85 should not be stored for long periods of time due to this as the water can increase corrosion.
I'd wager used oil analysis would show higher levels of metal contaminants in non-Flex Fuel vehicles running E85 verses the same vehicle running unleaded.
Do you work in the Oil Industry??
Last edited by DigitalMarket; Aug 29, 2010 at 01:59 AM.
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From: so fla
Fair question, but the answer is no.
E85 in no way affects my paycheck at all.
Our E85 flex fuel tuners were deemed 'too good of an idea' by the EPA who stepped in and politely asked us to stop bring FFV to the masses....
I agree with your subsidies idea, to an extent, what we need to do is step back and look at a country like Venezuala....oil rich, but not dependent on their own supplies as they use sugar based Ethanol and their fuel costs are ridiculously low.
E85 in no way affects my paycheck at all.
Our E85 flex fuel tuners were deemed 'too good of an idea' by the EPA who stepped in and politely asked us to stop bring FFV to the masses....
I agree with your subsidies idea, to an extent, what we need to do is step back and look at a country like Venezuala....oil rich, but not dependent on their own supplies as they use sugar based Ethanol and their fuel costs are ridiculously low.
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From: Seabrook,NH
