Jack it's nothing against you. Jpadeo is right, do a search. This kind of stuff has been covered quite a bit, that's why no one responded. I saw it and just passed it up. It gets tiring answering the same questions especially because a lot of us create threads to help people out when they search.



It seems like more and more so recently, no one even bothers with the search. It's upsetting because a lot of us have contributed and created threads to answer people's question. I know i.ride.suzuki has created a lot of informative threads to help people when they search.

 

Thank you Thumper. I understand all too well what you're talking about. The trouble is, I HAD looked around enough that I became convinced the information was not there. And, I DO know how to use the features in an "advanced" search.

But, if you don't get the right words sometimes, you completely miss the post. And, even with carefully worded searches, you get way too many hits. So, for instance, I type "max rpm limit" (because that's the way I'm thinking at the moment) and I get 2 pages of useless hits. On the other hand, if I type "redline rpm", I get 15 pages but there seems to be useful information in the first few pages.

I say "seems" to be because much of it looks like "opinion". Somewhere, there are design specifications for the engines and transmissions in our trucks. I also supposed that Ford might make some of this information known to its trained mechanics, many of whom are in this forum. I was simply hoping they'd share their expert knowledge. Isn't that what these forums are about?

And it would be great, wouldn't it, if people could learn to give meaningful titles to threads they start?

To Jpdadeo, I apologize. I should not have reacted so childishly to your "search" suggestion. I consider my hands slapped.

- Jack

 

The 4r100 uses just your basic ATF (or better) while the 4r70/4r75 require Mecron V (or better). The Temp with the better fluid (Mecron V) in the 4r70/4r75 will take the heat a little better but doesn't hold as much fluid, 19qt/14qt so the tranny has a little longer interval to be serviced, (I don't have the wording but hopefully you understand what i'm saying here).


Also one thing that found while trying to search for info is that it gets lost in a bunch of posts that many of them basically just say "use the search feature"

Also there is one other question that I still can't find the answer to and that is what the stock oil pump is good to in terms of rpms, as i have been searching and exploring the higher reving cams option and would like to see 7000-7500 rpm

 

That's what ruffled my feathers, Gotts2BMe - I've seen too much "use the search" and if that's all we should do, why have a forum? Forums are for sharing ideas and for questions and answers. At least that's how I see it.

Thanks too for the additional information on ATF fluid temperatures. At least I have now a pretty good idea of how far I can let it go.

In my last truck, a Nissan Frontier (don't throw rocks please), I found I was running the engine (a 6-cyl) at 5400 RPM (just below redline) in first gear trying to drag our trailer over Monarch Pass in Colorado (elevation 11,000+ feet). I was very worried about the transmission, but it seemed no worse for the experience. That was when I decided I needed an f150, or something similar. The ability to monitor TFT on my Gryphon is just icing on the cake.

You're saying the oil pump would be driven to 7000-7500 rpm with a higher reving cam? Ford HAS to have a data sheet on that pump. They can't just stick it in their engines without knowing what its limits are.

Ford doesn't have a "knowledge base" like Microsoft do they? It seems to me that's how I found this forum, while looking for a knowledge base.

- Jack

 

puss out if you want but this don't even belong in this forum; read

 

Jack,

I have no doubt Ford reviewed a data sheet for the oil pump. What you have to understand is, more than likely Ford did not build that oil pump. They bought it from a supplier that makes lots of oil pumps. A list of Fords requirements were sent out to the suppliers, and those suppliers sent back a bid stating cost and capabilities of their parts. Ford picked what they wanted and may have asked for a "Motorcraft" label to be placed on it. So, what you are looking for is not "Ford's datasheet," but who the supplier was that provided that oil pump to Ford. Assuming there was nothing proprietary about that particular pump (probably not, that would have been extra expensive), the very datasheet you seek might be on the suppliers website, or available upon request from a sales associate.

Another thing to consider is simply that there is not a quick and dirty answer to your question. The answer to a question such as "what is the max rpm of a given engine?" really is not a single number. It depends on your definition of "max rpm." There is not a number that the engine explodes as soon as it is crossed. One engine might survive a full throttle run to 8000rpms before something broke. Another engine off the same assembly line from the same day might give up the ghost at 7600rpms. One might die from a broken wrist pin on at the piston. The other might have blown a head gasket. An entire motor is not like a piece of metal that can be analyzed and determined exactly when it will break given a certain amount of stress. There are just too many variables.

So, the rpm question might be viewed as "What is the maximum safe rpm I can run?" Again, same problem as above. Ford decided on a max rpm and limits their motors at that value with their engine control computer's software. This is a variable that can be changed. If the limit is 5200rpm, will running to 5300rpm blow up the motor. Maybe. Probably not, but if it does kiss your warranty goodbye if the mechanic finds out what happened. Engine designers for major automotive companies always design in lots of fudge factor. One reason is to give the vehicle a longer life...or at least to get through the warranty period. Another reason is to have some options when a competitor comes out the next model year with another 20hp in their truck engine, Ford can answer with just a software change in the engine controller. However, I am certain the answer is never just turn up the rpm limit. Many other adjustments are made, possibly including cam profiles, throttle body diameter or overall shape, exhaust manifolds, head ports, etc...the list could be endless. The exact details of their engine mods is not the kind of thing Ford or any other manufacturer would want to come out tell the world...its like showing your cards at a poker game.

I know this long diatribe does not answer your question. What I hope is that it helps make it clear why no one seems to have what you are asking for.

Mike

 

No Mike, it does and I understand what you are saying completely. And, I appreciate the time and effort you went through to enlighten me (and others).

Yes, I knew Ford probably subcontracted for the oil pump (and everything else too - probably from China ). But, since I have an engineering degree, I know this pump would have specs that Ford thought would suit their engine's needs. And, you're right, those are probably available from the pump's real manufacturer. Good luck here though. Ford probably buys from several vendors, depending on which is cheapest, and changes each time a contract is due to be renewed.

I did find one online reference, Gotts2BMe, that states there have been failures in the "powdered metal gears" used in the stock pumps and that for high performance applications, a high performance pump (at around $57) was recommended.

Back to the redline rpm issue though. The engineering design requirements for a device will specify "safe" operating limits for that device. The device itself is then built so it satisfies those requirements. I know you can "get lucky" and push one instance of the products way above the limits while others may fail just above those limits. The point is, the device SHOULD be ok if operated within the limits. That was all I was interested in and I'm fairly comfortable with a limit of 5400 for the torque converter (which I had not thought of).

And, I DO understand your reference to using software to control things (hiding the facts from us consumers). Software IS easy to change, isn't it? Maybe we just limit the max rpm and the max vehicle speed in a "big-brother" sort of way, so we can get away with a warrenty that sounds better than it really is?

I remember being shocked when I first saw the tach in this truck and there wasn't a redline! I felt like all control had been taken from me.

So, I hope you, and others, see where I am on this. Knowledge is power! Blind faith in Ford?

Thanks again.

- Jack

 

FYI, my tuner cranked my rev limiter up to 6,000 on my 2001 4.6L PI Romeo, and was letting off at 5,900 on the dyno. He ran it 8-10 times like this. When I got home, I dropped it back down to 5,600 because that's where it starts to drop off pretty good now. However, I have the 5-speed so no torque converter to balloon, and underdrive pulleys, so that helped out the alternator as well. I think I read where Troyer said 5,800 was safe for the 2v engines themselves, but I'm not positive.

 

After reading this topic/thread I went to my Ford DVD and found some info on the discussions [this info is from a '01]

1. Fail-Safe Cooling Strategy
Only vehicles that have a cylinder head temperature (CHT) sensor will have the fail-safe cooling strategy. This strategy is activated by the PCM only in the event that an overheating condition has been identified. This strategy provides engine temperature control when the cylinder head temperature exceeds certain limits. The cylinder head temperature is measured by the CHT sensor. For additional information, refer to PCM Inputs for a description of the CHT sensor.

A cooling system failure such as low coolant or coolant loss could cause an overheating condition. As a result, damage to major engine components could occur. Along with a CHT sensor, a special cooling strategy is used to prevent damage by allowing air cooling of the engine. The vehicle can be safely driven for a short time with some loss of performance.

Engine temperature is controlled by varying and alternating the number of disabled fuel injectors. This allows all cylinders to cool. When the fuel injectors are disabled, their respective cylinders work as air pumps, and this air is used to cool the cylinders. The more fuel injectors that are disabled, the cooler the engine runs, but the engine has less power.

Note: A wide open throttle (WOT) delay is incorporated if the CHT temperature is exceeded during WOT operation. At WOT, the injectors will function for a limited amount of time allowing the customer to complete a passing maneuver.

Before injectors are disabled, the fail-safe cooling strategy alerts the customer to a cooling system problem by moving the instrument cluster temperature gauge to the hot zone. Depending on the vehicle, other indicators, such as an audible chime or warning lamp, can be used to alert the customer of fail-safe cooling. If overheating continues, the strategy begins to disable the fuel injectors, a DTC is stored in the PCM memory, and a malfunction indicator light (MIL) (either CHECK ENGINE or SERVICE ENGINE SOON), comes on. If the overheating condition continues and a critical temperature is reached, all fuel injectors are turned off and the engine is disabled.

 

2. Failure Mode Effects Management
Failure Mode Effects Management (FMEM) is an alternate system strategy in the PCM designed to maintain engine operation if one or more sensor inputs fail.

When a sensor input is perceived to be out-of-limits by the PCM, an alternative strategy is initiated. The PCM substitutes a fixed value and continues to monitor the incorrect sensor input. If the suspect sensor operates within limits, the PCM returns to the normal engine operational strategy.

All FMEM sensors display a sequence error message on the scan tool. The message may or may not be followed by Key On Engine Off or Continuous Memory DTCs when attempting Key On Engine Running Self-Test Mode.


3. Engine RPM/Vehicle Speed Limiter
The powertrain control module (PCM) will disable some or all of the fuel injectors whenever an engine rpm or vehicle overspeed condition is detected. The purpose of the engine rpm or vehicle speed limiter is to prevent damage to the powertrain. The vehicle will exhibit a rough running engine condition, and the PCM will store a Continuous Memory DTC P1270. Once the driver reduces the excessive speed, the engine will return to the normal operating mode. No repair is required. However, the technician should clear the PCM and inform the customer of the reason for the DTC.

Excessive wheel slippage may be caused by sand, gravel, rain, mud, snow, ice, etc. or excessive and sudden increase in rpm while in NEUTRAL or while driving.

 

Thank you Torkum, for your contribution here. I was especially interested to learn that the disabled cylinders were "alternated" to better cool the whole engine. Sounds like Ford designed something right for once!

I was also interested to learn the PCM would store an error code if you exceeded the RPM or max speed limits programmed into it. And, that this code is not self clearing. The Gryphon, of course, CAN clear this code and I think maybe other programmers can too?

Good reason maybe to up the limits on max RPM and max speed (within reason, of course), which you can do with a programmer.

It also was not clear in the owner's manual that the temp gauge would "redline" sometime before beginning to shutdown cylinders, as a "warning". I had understood it to be more of a simultaneous event.

Again, thanks. I'm sure there are others like me out there that are happy to learn more about the design philosophy/strategy that went into these trucks.

- Jack