This isn't just directed at Bill, ASEMechanic, but since I own the Edge, its more geared that way. Troyer and VMP, feel free to chime in. Read the title again.... okay..... start: I've noticed a lot of praises to you Bill, and I'm sure that every one is justly deserved. MY questions are completely for informational purposes, as i'm looking into getting my Edge tuned by, well, YOU. When people mention "canned" tunes, they are all refering to the stock Evo programming. However, by purchasing a tune from you, albeit custom compared to the stock Edge, isn't it just a glorified canned tune? One that obviously makes a world of difference, or they wouldn't be so popular. But wouldn't a customer actually benefit more from getting their own personal truck up on the dyno, having the output right there in front of them, and being able to tune, especially the A/F ratio, right there?
I understand you have dyno hours (many) to develope your tuning, and i've purchased "custom" tunes for my Mustang GT with an SCT 2, and it did make a HUGE difference. But then i got curious, got her on the dyno, and squeezed another 13 hp/8lbft. with a better a/f ratio. I'm just curious, when/if i get your tunes, if i were to throw her up on the dyno, would i still be able to squeeze more out anyway?
Another question.... Do you dyno develope every tune per customers order? Say someone wants one of your tunes, but they want to use an intake noone else does. Would you buy the intake, and develope a tune for that? Or are all of your tunes developed using one particular intake of choice? Evolution Performance is the company I ordered my SCT tunes through, and they were tuned specifically for 2 different intakes. Whichever one you wanted to purchase through them, they included a different tune. You could just buy the custom tunes from them, but how would that work if you DONT buy the intakes they developed their tunes from? Thats why i want to know.
Lastly, but not leastly, with the Evolution, you say you're the only Evo tuner. Is that PERIOD in the U.S? I notice you can't put a wideband on the Edges, so if you have the 02 sensor, could someone just take it to any shop that does tuning and have them program the Evo with a dyno tune? Just curious, because without the ability to get a wideband into my edge, how do you do your dyno tuning?
Please keep in mind, these are all questions directed to any of the notable sponsors here that do custom tuning. IN NO WAY am i trying to question your expertise, just wanting to know how far the Edge can be taken, and how you develope your tuning. Bill said it in a post, can you trust that person [doing the tunes] with your 35k truck? This seems like a semi-logical way to find something out about the guy im trusting to NOT detonate my engine at 75 mph, 400 miles from home. Respond away.....

 

First, I'd like to commend you for bringing this question to the surface. I am sure that there are A LOT of folks who have the same questions. I will do my best to answer what I can in regards to how I tune and hopefully Troyer will have some time to do the same with his processes. Of course, we can't give out the Colonel's Secret Recipe but I'll do the best I can to be honest and informative. I know I will get hammered on post length so I will probably have to break it up a bit.

Wihtout question, Dyno Tuning is absolutely the way to go. There is no more accurate means of performance tuning. Period. Given that there is only one of me (and in effect one Mike Troyer and one Justin) it is not logistically possible to dyno tune even a small fraction of the vehicles we do. We (and I am sure I speak for Troyer and Justin here as well, and if not, I apologize) have to use our experience gained during dyno time and apply it to the other 99.8 percent of the market that wants custom tuning.

Now, because I don't Dyno Tune every vehicle, does that mean I shouldn't classify it as a Custom Tune? No. By (my) definition, custom tuning means to look at every aspect of the customer's vehicle and design a file or set of files to fit that customer's need. We look at parameters such as vheicle type (car, truck, gas, diesel), weight, modifications, fuel quality (85, 97, 93, 100+ octane), geographic location (sea-level, hi-alt, cold, hot), driving style (aggressive, mild), application (daily driver, streetlight racer, horse hauler), and others to make specific decisions about how to modify the tunes we provide.

To use the Colonel Sanders metaphor again, chicken is chicken. It's the 11 herbs and spices that makes it special. I can go to the store and buy my own chicken and throw it in the oven. Does it fill my tummy? Yep. Was it the best thing since sliced bread? Maybe, if all I wanted to do was not starve. However, if I really wanted to enjoy it, I'd season it. Now, if I put too much salt on it, it's turns to crap. Experience tells me how much salt to add. Now if I season by hand, sometimes it's a little light on salt, sometimes it's a little heavy. A teaspoon would give me the same amount every time. The Dyno is like the teaspoon. It gives me the measurement. That doesn't mean I can't make good chicken without measuring the spices, and it's still not the "canned" chicken, but the teaspoon provides repeatable, quantifiable results.

Okay enough with food. (Dang, I'm hungry now...)

Continued in next post...

 

... Continued

As I said before, Dyno Tuning is the end all, be all of tuning and I am sure that there are other gains to be had by doing such. I don't deny that and I doubt any other tuner worth his weight would argue that either. Given the situation, we do as much as we can with the information provided and do our best to provide a safe, streetable calibration.

Again, it is logistically impossible to tune for every possible combination of modifications available so we do the best we can with what have to test with. Now it has been my experience that despite the number of intakes, exhausts, and other mods out there, they all respond in very similar ways when applied to the same type of vehicle. A 3" CAI kit is going to respond in a nearly identical fashion to every other 3" CAI kit, but will certainly respond differently than a 3½" CAI kit. Exhaust mods are the same. Would custom tuning each kit generate any performance improvements between them? It's possible, but in general the gains are going to be minimal. The key is to provide some sort of tuning for the CAI in general, with less concentration on the manufacturer of the kit. Troyer may have more ACTUAL CAI specific tuning under his belt because he has more of them at his disposal, and I'd like to hear his position on this, but I'd argue that any single one unit is SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other and that any single one unit requires SIGNIFICANTLY different tuning. Again, among same sizes and types...

Continued again in next post...

 

... Continued

Yes, I am the only custom tuner for the Evolution, although that is going to change in the next couple days as I am now selling a private labelled version of the Evolution. Once sales start, I have agreed with Edge to no longer provide custom tuning of "Evolutions" and will only provide them on my version of the hardware. This agreement was reached in order to protect Edge's CARB/EPA status. I CAN, however, continue to resolve "drivability" issues on the "Evolution" as they arise.

Also, if someone has the ability to tune the truck using other means, I can usually compile the final files into one that can be loaded into the programmer.

In general, our dyno tuning is done with a stand-alone Wideband O2 sensor so we can account for the variations in AFR. This is fairly standard practice for gas tuning.

Don't kid us... you are questioning our expertise, and you have every right to. As you indicated, I made the position that your decision is based on how knowledgable you feel the person tuning your truck is and whether or not they are sufficiently experienced to handle such an endeavor.

Nobody wants to find out the hard way they made a bad choice, whether it be tuning for your truck, the food you eat, or the school you send your kids to. The only way to be sure you are making the right choice is to ask questions and if you aren't satisfied with the answers, take your business elsewhere. I'd certainly rather someone buy from someone else than feel for one minute that I didn't give them a fair shake.

Hope this helps. Now to go find some chicken...

 

To the OP
To Bill

 

Yuk! So, if I read this right, in a couple of days you will NOT be able to write a custom tune for us who have already bought an Edge. Will anyone be able to do it?

Any chance us "old" owners could be "grandfathered"?

Other than this bit of unwelcome news, I agree, it was an excellent question, response post.

- Jack

 

Yes, you read it right. Custom tuning for the Evolution will no longer be offered by anyone. It's not because Edge doesn't recognize the need for it, it's just the way CARB/EPA has the regulations set up. As I said though, I will still be handling "drivability" issues on a case by case basis.

Also, those who I have already provided custom tuning for will still be fully supported in the future.

 

Guess I better hold off on buying the evolution and wait for one of Bill's versions then.

 

Were making the "Official" announcement Monday but have already taken several pre-orders.

Take care.

 

Very interesting post. So where would one purchase this special version? From you? Online only? What is it called? I was set for getting an edge and your tunes in a month. Is your version custom to each truck? How does this work? Just curious. Thanks for explaining everything too.

 

Well, props to Bill. That eloquent "chicken" speech made me just hungry enough to go heat up some chicken strips before i replied... I appreciate the feedback, more than you'll know. It clears up a lot of smaller questions that just lead to a lot of uncertainty. Now, that being said, DANG YOU BILL! I just got my evo last week, and already it's out-dated and can't be tuned! Heh, that's okay. The truck it's on is staying stock i guess. Gonna have to convince to wife to get a new "toy" to play these games with. Thanks again.

 

idk have to agree what write up was impressive to the consumers concerns!

 

chalk it up to O.C.D. Finally came in handy!

 

ummmmm...I wonder if Kentucky Fried Chicken is still open, I'm hungry

 

Man... Only I can take a serious thread about tuning and get everyone thinking about KFC!