Torque loss???
#16
12-30-2000, 02:10 PM
Former Sponsor
I think it was mjd5.4 who called me to tell me that he had originally installed the headers while still using the factory exhaust, and that after doing the exhaust system changes, you lost torque, that was very interesting. It shows just how important proper flow engineering is in aftermarket cat-back exhaust systems, whether you use them with headers or without.
Usually the feedback we get from people installing the Gibson swept-side system, the one that is flow-engineered for towing, they usually say that they did not suffer any low-end torque loss, though a few people have felt that they did. So it was interesting to hear mjd5.4's comments on what happened to him. I wonder if it's just the combination of that exhaust system and those particular headers possibly?
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
Usually the feedback we get from people installing the Gibson swept-side system, the one that is flow-engineered for towing, they usually say that they did not suffer any low-end torque loss, though a few people have felt that they did. So it was interesting to hear mjd5.4's comments on what happened to him. I wonder if it's just the combination of that exhaust system and those particular headers possibly?
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
#17
12-30-2000, 05:07 PM
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Are you guys sure that you're not just noticing the enhanced breathing and HP in the upper RPM and the difference is just making you feel like the lower part is wimpy?
Isn't it just common sense that you can fart easier when not sitting -- and your new exhaust is helping you 'break-wind' a hole (pun intended) lot easier?
Do you have any benchmarks (like: did you beat that Z-71 before, and now you cannot)?
How about the gas mileage? Is it better now with your new exhaust?
(Those flowmasters sound good, don't they?)
Regards,
------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com
Toreador Red, Keyless XLT SC SB 5.4L E4x4 4wDisc/ABS, 3.73LS, Skid, HD 7700# Towing, LT-245's on Chrome, Tube-Steps, Captain's, 6CD, Tonneau, named: "Nick"
Isn't it just common sense that you can fart easier when not sitting -- and your new exhaust is helping you 'break-wind' a hole (pun intended) lot easier?
Do you have any benchmarks (like: did you beat that Z-71 before, and now you cannot)?
How about the gas mileage? Is it better now with your new exhaust?
(Those flowmasters sound good, don't they?)
Regards,
------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com
Toreador Red, Keyless XLT SC SB 5.4L E4x4 4wDisc/ABS, 3.73LS, Skid, HD 7700# Towing, LT-245's on Chrome, Tube-Steps, Captain's, 6CD, Tonneau, named: "Nick"
#18
12-30-2000, 05:50 PM
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jgorka, its called back presure, the guys that have felt the loss in torque are not dreaming, when you press the gas down it dose not do what it used to do, make no mistake, im sure anyone on this site could tell the differece, when doing mods ,they all have to work together, what do you think would happen if you took the headers off, it would breath even better.NOT The motor would not run.
------------------
1999 Ford F-150 xlt .supercab, 4x4 sport pkg. 4.6 Triton, Black with grey int,A.R.E. Lid, ford bug deflector,Q-Forms,eclipes head unit,and speakers,kicker solo's for subs,1000 watt amp. Flow master 70 series, K&N drop in,jet chip .will be geting a superchip.
------------------
1999 Ford F-150 xlt .supercab, 4x4 sport pkg. 4.6 Triton, Black with grey int,A.R.E. Lid, ford bug deflector,Q-Forms,eclipes head unit,and speakers,kicker solo's for subs,1000 watt amp. Flow master 70 series, K&N drop in,jet chip .will be geting a superchip.
#19
12-30-2000, 06:15 PM
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Jgorka, I hope I'm wrong, but it just feels so different I know something happened. I even looked to make sure my chip had not been stolen. I hope it will give me better hp. Do you think this will increase 1/4 mile times or decrease? They do sound good you are right about that. Thanks for the info.
------------------
1999 F-150 Lariat SC 2 WD, White/Silver, 5.4L, 3.55LS, K & N FIPK, Superchip, underdrive pulley set, Flowmaster dual chamber one in and duels out, six disc CD changer, towing package and captain chairs
------------------
1999 F-150 Lariat SC 2 WD, White/Silver, 5.4L, 3.55LS, K & N FIPK, Superchip, underdrive pulley set, Flowmaster dual chamber one in and duels out, six disc CD changer, towing package and captain chairs
#20
12-30-2000, 09:03 PM
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Well, I'm not an exhaust engineer -- and I believe that all of the vehicles that I ever put dual exhaust in place of the single exhaust ran better/faster/more efficiently.
Earlier in my career as both a professional mechanic and later shadetree mechanic, I bet I've started up every freshly built/rebuilt engine without the benefit of any exhaust pipe/muffler/manifold to verify that it would indeed run prior to final button-up, but...
...I admit to zero experience with the current round of electro-managed engines -- and, from myriad discussions here and there conclude that there must be something different with electronicly-managed engines than the old stuff of which I'm familliar.
My son and I did manage to get his 5L Mustang and a 350 Chevelle antique to run quite satisfactorily by putting on some nice big Flowmasters -- and/but we didn't have to worry about any computer second-guessing our activities.
There's obviously more to it now than on engines that just sucked gasoline thru some termite-riddled aluminum bowls -- and I'm happy just sitting here and waiting for y'all to post the answers.
Keep those thinking caps on; and Happy New Year
------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com
Toreador Red, Keyless XLT SC SB 5.4L E4x4 4wDisc/ABS, 3.73LS, Skid, HD 7700# Towing, LT-245's on Chrome, Tube-Steps, Captain's, 6CD, Tonneau, named: "Nick"
Earlier in my career as both a professional mechanic and later shadetree mechanic, I bet I've started up every freshly built/rebuilt engine without the benefit of any exhaust pipe/muffler/manifold to verify that it would indeed run prior to final button-up, but...
...I admit to zero experience with the current round of electro-managed engines -- and, from myriad discussions here and there conclude that there must be something different with electronicly-managed engines than the old stuff of which I'm familliar.
My son and I did manage to get his 5L Mustang and a 350 Chevelle antique to run quite satisfactorily by putting on some nice big Flowmasters -- and/but we didn't have to worry about any computer second-guessing our activities.
There's obviously more to it now than on engines that just sucked gasoline thru some termite-riddled aluminum bowls -- and I'm happy just sitting here and waiting for y'all to post the answers.
Keep those thinking caps on; and Happy New Year
------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com
Toreador Red, Keyless XLT SC SB 5.4L E4x4 4wDisc/ABS, 3.73LS, Skid, HD 7700# Towing, LT-245's on Chrome, Tube-Steps, Captain's, 6CD, Tonneau, named: "Nick"
#21
12-31-2000, 01:29 AM
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Well I got to drive it for a while tonight and it's not so bad. It still does not have the power it had before on the low end but maybe I'll get used to it. Why can't I have it all?
------------------
1999 F-150 Lariat SC 2 WD, White/Silver, 5.4L, 3.55LS, K & N FIPK, Superchip, underdrive pulley set, Flowmaster dual chamber one in and duels out, six disc CD changer, towing package and captain chairs
------------------
1999 F-150 Lariat SC 2 WD, White/Silver, 5.4L, 3.55LS, K & N FIPK, Superchip, underdrive pulley set, Flowmaster dual chamber one in and duels out, six disc CD changer, towing package and captain chairs
#22
12-31-2000, 04:10 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi jgorka,
I wouldn't discount your past experience (with non-computer controlled engines), it's always valuable, as that really isn't where the differences lie, it's more in the differences in how the factory exhaust systems are designed these days. For example, I don't know how old you are, but assuming you are old enough to have seen the original musclecars, GTO's SS 396's, etc., even these muscle cars came from the factory with small exhaust pipe diameter, you never saw anything larger than 2 inches at best, and most were 1.5-1.75 inches unless it was a "musclecar" for the most part. Also, they really weren't "flow engineered" as they have the capability to do today.
Today's factory exhaust systems in these vehicles are generally 2.5 inches in diameter to begin with, and they have the benefit of very careful flow engineering for each application. And it is this much larger pipe diameter, combined with real flow engineering that has changed the typical results when making exhaust changes, especially in these heavy trucks.
It used to be that on just about any motor, a V-6 or a V-8, you put a set of "duals" on, (what we today call "true duals"), and you got a nice power gain throughout the entire rpm range and at any throttle position, it was simple. Today's systems are much larger, and it takes some real flow-engineering to actually increase or even not lose torque at lower rpms at lighter throttle positions. Sure, you can open it up with a set of 3" true-duals and pick up power at full-throttle and lower ET's at the drag strip, easily. But what actually happens to overall *driveability* on the street in day-to-day driving is another matter entirely, and that's where the real science and art of flow-engineering comes into play.
Just FYI.......
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 12-31-2000).]
I wouldn't discount your past experience (with non-computer controlled engines), it's always valuable, as that really isn't where the differences lie, it's more in the differences in how the factory exhaust systems are designed these days. For example, I don't know how old you are, but assuming you are old enough to have seen the original musclecars, GTO's SS 396's, etc., even these muscle cars came from the factory with small exhaust pipe diameter, you never saw anything larger than 2 inches at best, and most were 1.5-1.75 inches unless it was a "musclecar" for the most part. Also, they really weren't "flow engineered" as they have the capability to do today.
Today's factory exhaust systems in these vehicles are generally 2.5 inches in diameter to begin with, and they have the benefit of very careful flow engineering for each application. And it is this much larger pipe diameter, combined with real flow engineering that has changed the typical results when making exhaust changes, especially in these heavy trucks.
It used to be that on just about any motor, a V-6 or a V-8, you put a set of "duals" on, (what we today call "true duals"), and you got a nice power gain throughout the entire rpm range and at any throttle position, it was simple. Today's systems are much larger, and it takes some real flow-engineering to actually increase or even not lose torque at lower rpms at lighter throttle positions. Sure, you can open it up with a set of 3" true-duals and pick up power at full-throttle and lower ET's at the drag strip, easily. But what actually happens to overall *driveability* on the street in day-to-day driving is another matter entirely, and that's where the real science and art of flow-engineering comes into play.
Just FYI.......
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 12-31-2000).]
#23
01-01-2001, 12:43 AM
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Tks, Mike.
I cut my teeth on a 1963 Chev 409 -- and it came stock with 2.5" head pipes to a pair of mufflers and then knocked down to 2.25" to resonators and then out each side of the car.
Manyu other cars of that era had 2.5" pipes (inlet to muffler); and 2.25" outlets -- however I do remember the laughable transverse muffler on my buddy's 1969 427 ZL-1 (aluminum/aluminum) Camero (twin head pipes entered different ends of one muffler -- and two exhausts came out of the same muffler). Now THERE's an application where lake pipes really made it come alive with the 'off-road' cam (which wouldn't idle at anything less than 2,000 rpm -- which was a killer with the B&M Hydro mod (factory) automatic.
I built engines for a living while putting myself thru college -- and have some experience with exhaust -- albeit that was from 1976 thru 1973.
I was wondering why Ford settled for single exhaust in their 'Flagship' F-150's -- and trusted in the almighty dollar that it must be for a practical reason -- and since these trucks are supposed to be able to tow, I figured that it must be pretty optimized for efficiency.
It's too bad that more people don't run their trucks down the track for a ticket or two prior to installing aftermarket stuff -- since they have no way of telling to what benefit their mods contributed.
I've always trusted the aftermarket brand names when they sell a 'package' for a particular project -- and it seems from the posts elsewhere that such is still sage advice.
I also haven't stumbled across even one aftermarket camshaft for a 5.4L.
Since the real culprit in any airbox/exhaust manipulation is the resultant air/fuel mix -- it's equally puzzling why nobody seems to stick one of those tailpipe sniffers in after a change to see just what did happen.
They weren't too expensive back in the early 70's -- and they can't cost much more today. I do miss that marvelous Allen Test diagnostics monster that I used back then.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
One of my favorite T-Shirts I saw at Martin Dragway reads "...The older I get -- the faster I was...".
Happy New Year.
------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com
Toreador Red, Keyless XLT SC SB 5.4L E4x4 4wDisc/ABS, 3.73LS, Skid, HD 7700# Towing, LT-245's on Chrome, Tube-Steps, Captain's, 6CD, Tonneau, named: "Nick"
I cut my teeth on a 1963 Chev 409 -- and it came stock with 2.5" head pipes to a pair of mufflers and then knocked down to 2.25" to resonators and then out each side of the car.
Manyu other cars of that era had 2.5" pipes (inlet to muffler); and 2.25" outlets -- however I do remember the laughable transverse muffler on my buddy's 1969 427 ZL-1 (aluminum/aluminum) Camero (twin head pipes entered different ends of one muffler -- and two exhausts came out of the same muffler). Now THERE's an application where lake pipes really made it come alive with the 'off-road' cam (which wouldn't idle at anything less than 2,000 rpm -- which was a killer with the B&M Hydro mod (factory) automatic.
I built engines for a living while putting myself thru college -- and have some experience with exhaust -- albeit that was from 1976 thru 1973.
I was wondering why Ford settled for single exhaust in their 'Flagship' F-150's -- and trusted in the almighty dollar that it must be for a practical reason -- and since these trucks are supposed to be able to tow, I figured that it must be pretty optimized for efficiency.
It's too bad that more people don't run their trucks down the track for a ticket or two prior to installing aftermarket stuff -- since they have no way of telling to what benefit their mods contributed.
I've always trusted the aftermarket brand names when they sell a 'package' for a particular project -- and it seems from the posts elsewhere that such is still sage advice.
I also haven't stumbled across even one aftermarket camshaft for a 5.4L.
Since the real culprit in any airbox/exhaust manipulation is the resultant air/fuel mix -- it's equally puzzling why nobody seems to stick one of those tailpipe sniffers in after a change to see just what did happen.
They weren't too expensive back in the early 70's -- and they can't cost much more today. I do miss that marvelous Allen Test diagnostics monster that I used back then.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
One of my favorite T-Shirts I saw at Martin Dragway reads "...The older I get -- the faster I was...".
Happy New Year.
------------------
Y2K™ 7700 4x4
Jim - N8JG@Hotmail.com
Toreador Red, Keyless XLT SC SB 5.4L E4x4 4wDisc/ABS, 3.73LS, Skid, HD 7700# Towing, LT-245's on Chrome, Tube-Steps, Captain's, 6CD, Tonneau, named: "Nick"
#24
01-01-2001, 03:19 PM
Former Sponsor
Hi Jim,
In today's computer-controlled engines, the A/F mixture is not an issue when doing basic changes such as reducing restriction in the air intake tract or on the exhaust side, as the O2 sensors (coupled with mass airflow meter, etc.) provide constant feedback, so we don't have the issues of needing to "re-jet" for those types of changes, like we used to need to do to really get any combination dialed in. So sniffing the tailpipe is not something that is generally needed on most normally-aspirated engines these days, thanks to computer-controlled fuel injection. Now when you're talking dyno-tuning, then yes of course, that is SOP. But needing to sniff for A/F after making most of the more common bolt-ons on computer-controlled vehicles is a thing of the past.
Your comment about needing to establish a baseline prior to mods is always appropriate, you bet.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
In today's computer-controlled engines, the A/F mixture is not an issue when doing basic changes such as reducing restriction in the air intake tract or on the exhaust side, as the O2 sensors (coupled with mass airflow meter, etc.) provide constant feedback, so we don't have the issues of needing to "re-jet" for those types of changes, like we used to need to do to really get any combination dialed in. So sniffing the tailpipe is not something that is generally needed on most normally-aspirated engines these days, thanks to computer-controlled fuel injection. Now when you're talking dyno-tuning, then yes of course, that is SOP. But needing to sniff for A/F after making most of the more common bolt-ons on computer-controlled vehicles is a thing of the past.
Your comment about needing to establish a baseline prior to mods is always appropriate, you bet.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
#25
01-03-2001, 06:28 PM
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Mike,while were on the flow/overflow mentality right now,what do you think of those exhaust tips with the spring loaded
TB style flaps in them? They are said to add bottom end power by causing backpressure at low rpm's. So,theoretically you could put on high flow
mufflers for high end power,but still have
your low end torque. Are these things just a fad,or are they for real. They are used on high performance boats primarily,but a few companies have begun making them for automotive applications.
One claims to increase fuel economy
by 8.3%,along with reducing toxic emissions. Is this BS or not?
Do they belong in the can along with the Tornado,Poweraid,and fuel line magnets?,lol,,,,,98
------------------
98 F-150 4.6 Litre XLT2wd Ext. cab
Yokahama AVS/ST's
prarie tan/tan int.
K/N gen.II fipk
custom dual exh/gibson rectangle tips/rear exiting.
color matched snuglid
Superchip!!!
Westin nerfs blk .powdercoat
Clear front corners
Stillen Quad light air dam, sweet!!
Euro taillights
Cobra 75WXST cb w/weather alert
[b]Kenwood cd w/Radio Shack speakers,don't laugh it sounds pretty good
Viper alarm
On the way/wheels,tires, etc..etc.......
the monochromatic boogie is done,cool!.
Come see my new pictures@ www.my-f150.com
officialtomwaits.com
reverendhortonheat.com
WOW,what a cool site!
FENDER GUITARS ROCK!!!
TB style flaps in them? They are said to add bottom end power by causing backpressure at low rpm's. So,theoretically you could put on high flow
mufflers for high end power,but still have
your low end torque. Are these things just a fad,or are they for real. They are used on high performance boats primarily,but a few companies have begun making them for automotive applications.
One claims to increase fuel economy
by 8.3%,along with reducing toxic emissions. Is this BS or not?
Do they belong in the can along with the Tornado,Poweraid,and fuel line magnets?,lol,,,,,98
------------------
98 F-150 4.6 Litre XLT2wd Ext. cab
Yokahama AVS/ST's
prarie tan/tan int.
K/N gen.II fipk
custom dual exh/gibson rectangle tips/rear exiting.
color matched snuglid
Superchip!!!
Westin nerfs blk .powdercoat
Clear front corners
Stillen Quad light air dam, sweet!!
Euro taillights
Cobra 75WXST cb w/weather alert
[b]Kenwood cd w/Radio Shack speakers,don't laugh it sounds pretty good
Viper alarm
On the way/wheels,tires, etc..etc.......
the monochromatic boogie is done,cool!.
Come see my new pictures@ www.my-f150.com
officialtomwaits.com
reverendhortonheat.com
WOW,what a cool site!
FENDER GUITARS ROCK!!!
#26
01-03-2001, 08:16 PM
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I spoke to a rep at Flowmaster and he stated my torque curve had been moved up, although he could not say at what level it would peak. I asked if the 70 series would work better with my setup and he said no, but I'm still not sure that is correct. I'm planning on giving it some time and take it to the 1/4 mile track very soon and see what it runs. I have some recent times with all mods before the Flowmaster 40. Very interesting situation I got myself into. Next time much more research.
------------------
1999 F-150 Lariat SC 2 WD, White/Silver, 5.4L, 3.55LS, K & N FIPK, Superchip, underdrive pulley set, Flowmaster dual chamber one in and duels out, six disc CD changer, towing package and captain chairs
------------------
1999 F-150 Lariat SC 2 WD, White/Silver, 5.4L, 3.55LS, K & N FIPK, Superchip, underdrive pulley set, Flowmaster dual chamber one in and duels out, six disc CD changer, towing package and captain chairs
#27
01-04-2001, 01:19 PM
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Here's the one I've noticed lately. Sorry about the quality,my new scanner kept wanting show both sides of the page,enjoy,,,,98
------------------
98 F-150 4.6 Litre XLT2wd Ext. cab
Yokahama AVS/ST's
prarie tan/tan int.
K/N gen.II fipk
custom dual exh/gibson rectangle tips/rear exiting.
color matched snuglid
Superchip!!!
Westin nerfs blk .powdercoat
Clear front corners
Stillen Quad light air dam, sweet!!
Euro taillights
Cobra 75WXST cb w/weather alert
[b]Kenwood cd w/Radio Shack speakers,don't laugh it sounds pretty good
Viper alarm
On the way/wheels,tires, etc..etc.......
the monochromatic boogie is done,cool!.
Come see my new pictures@ www.my-f150.com
officialtomwaits.com
reverendhortonheat.com
WOW,what a cool site!
FENDER GUITARS ROCK!!!
------------------
98 F-150 4.6 Litre XLT2wd Ext. cab
Yokahama AVS/ST's
prarie tan/tan int.
K/N gen.II fipk
custom dual exh/gibson rectangle tips/rear exiting.
color matched snuglid
Superchip!!!
Westin nerfs blk .powdercoat
Clear front corners
Stillen Quad light air dam, sweet!!
Euro taillights
Cobra 75WXST cb w/weather alert
[b]Kenwood cd w/Radio Shack speakers,don't laugh it sounds pretty good
Viper alarm
On the way/wheels,tires, etc..etc.......
the monochromatic boogie is done,cool!.
Come see my new pictures@ www.my-f150.com
officialtomwaits.com
reverendhortonheat.com
WOW,what a cool site!
FENDER GUITARS ROCK!!!
#28
01-05-2001, 12:26 AM
Former Sponsor
Hi Screamer,
I can't answer that one for you, as I have no experience with them, sorry. Don't think I've even seen a picture of them, so I really can't comment at all, my apologies.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer
I can't answer that one for you, as I have no experience with them, sorry. Don't think I've even seen a picture of them, so I really can't comment at all, my apologies.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Performance Products F150Online Superchip ordering system: F150Online Superchip Ordering System
First National F-150 Online Rally Event Organizer