Knuckleuppunk,

Respectfully...

You obviously know a great deal about fluid dynamics and the air intake business. I can respect that, so thanks for the information. It is informative and I have no doubt that S&B makes a fine air intake system and filter. I had an independent rep present your line to me about a year ago, and while it was impressive, a lot of folks don't know the S&B name yet. I've heard the pitch from several...K&N, Green Filter, TrueFlow, Injen, AF1, A&M, and the list goes on. Some use facts and test results, some rely on the name. The market is better than it used to be, but probably 75% of the folks that walk through our retail store's door equate aftermarket filter and/or aftermarket intake to K&N. I don't like it either. We can talk ISO certifications and technical data all day long, but for Average Joe it is very difficult to sell some of that at retail. I don't doubt any of it, but for a retail salesperson to take that info and present it to Average Joe in a way that he or she understands it and buys into it is a challenge. It's hard enough for many of the salespeople to understand themselves. My personal opinion is that many of the folks who walk into shops want a certain brand, or even an air intake product in general, because (1) They hear that it's the cool thing to do, and (2) marketing. I'd bet that more than half of the vehicles never see a dyno. Again, just my opinion.

Some of these guys want an intake for the sound, the shiny piece under the hood, and so that they can say they've got one. IF it adds something to the performance of the vehicle that they can feel, all the better, but I honestly believe that it's not top priority with some folks. That may sound ridiculous, but when you try to sell features to a guy and he still wants "the name" instead, you've either failed as a salesperson or the guy is looking for sound/looks/status over true performance. I'd go so far as to bet that 99 out of 100 people that walk into our shop and have to have a K&N could not give any evidence to why it's "the best." They know that name though! Don't misinterpret that statement - The true enthusiast doesn't fit this mold, I know, and there are a lot of those folks here. I most definitely am not saying that nobody cares about facts and true performance data...some do, thank goodness...and those that do overwhelmingly use the dyno as the judge of whether their intake "works" or not.

The trick is to take all of that rock solid test data and spin it in a way that the layman can understand, then market the hell out of the data and the name. I'm not an engineer. I'm an entry-level gear head at best. That doesn't mean I don't want an air intake to improve the performance of my engine, but it means that a lot of your argument is way over my head.

BTW, nice truck there at SEMA. I also love the look of your system.

 

That link will not open for me.

 

Try this link for the Dyno results: http://www.sbfilters.com/pdf/dyno_re...%20Results.pdf

 

It depends on which (driving) conditions result in the CEL... if it's tooling around town, then you're right... but if you're talking about WOT, I fail to see how an Edge could NOT correct the situation.

 

Worked like a charm.

Thanks.

 

Brian,

Thank you very much for your response and the kind words. In all honesty, I agree with you 100%. S&B has been in business for over 30 years, but where K&N focused on consumer branding, we focused our efforts on our growing private label filter business. This explains why K&N has great consumer backing and brand recognition. At the same time, we've been quietly behind the scenes manufacturing filters for 80%+ of the intake companies currently on the market. I promise you that many members here have already used our filters and didn't even know it.

It wasn't until Feb 2004 that we decided to start working on brand recognition and it has been a slow process for sure. This year will no doubt be a huge year for the S&B brand. We have actually just launched a marketing campaign that will educate the consumer on the S&B product line and the benefits of ISO testing. Just check out the February Issue of Deisel Power Magazine to see it for yourself. Not only is our new 5 page ad in that magazine, but the editor actually came out and did a 3 page feature on our company. If you want to see behind the scenes at S&B, pick up that issue for sure!

First and foremost, S&B is a filter manufacturing company. This is why ISO testing is so important to us. If the filter doesn't do it's job, then we don't care how much air it flows or the amount of power it produces. This is also why we invented the Precision Cleaning Kit. We are the only filter manufacture on the planet that addressed the problem of filters being over-oiled when serviced by the consumer. Our cleaning system allows the consumer to properly service their filter and apply the correct amount of oil that is within 5grams of our specifications! Check out this link for more information and the link on the site for a video of the system in action -

S&B's Precision Cleaning Kit

If you want, shoot me an email with your contact info and let's talk about how our two companies can start working together in 2007. Believe it or not, I do much better over the phone!

Cheers!

 

The key is to purchase a system that has the engineering behind it so it doesn't trigger a check engine code. It always amazes me when people resort to tuning around the MAF sensor values after an intake was installed to avoid check engine lights.

I understand that you don't want to fry an engine from a lean condition, but shouldn't the intake manufacturer address this problem and not force the consumer to purchase a tuner to fix their inferior product?

 

[QUOTE=knuckleuppunk]

I understand that you don't want to fry an engine from a lean condition, but shouldn't the intake manufacturer address this problem and not force the consumer to purchase a tuner to fix their inferior product?[/QUOTE]

Here come the flames!!!

 

I had heard before that S&B supplied a lot of folks filters. I'll definitely check out that Diesel Power issue.

Will you and your truck be at the SEMA Spring Expo in Hotlanta?

 

That statement wasn't directed to any one manufacturer, but rather an expression of how I feel about the majority of the intakes currently on the market.

I hope that this upcoming flame session isn't going to be directed at me. If it is, then I guess I'll have to prepare myself.


Unfortunately, I will not be at the Spring Expo this year. That doesn't mean that I can't make a business trip or vice versa. Let's talk this week and figure things out.

Cheers!

 

Certainly a valid point, but I suppose that my question is, what is the root cause of the lean condition? Is it in fact that too much air is moving past the MAF for the PCM to be able to compensate with fueling? Or is it something like too much turbulent air through the MAF that triggers the CEL?

If the real issue is too much air, then that seems like a legitimate issue that (most) people would want to get worked out with PCM/MAF tuning... in other words, rather than correcting the issue by restricting the airflow, take advantage of all the airflow you can get and do whatever you need to in order to add the necessary fuel.

Note that I am not saying that the S&B system (or any other system, for that matter) constrict intake airflow; I am honestly not sure how the CEL is avoided.

Also, to those who feel that any intake system that goes through the 3" or 3.5" hole in the fender is inadequate... how large is your MAF? How about your throttle body? If either of them is less than the diameter of the hole in the fender, then an intake system that goes through that hole won't be your restriction.

 

There are many reasons for a lean condition and they are not restricted to only the intake system. Faulty injectors, bad O2 sensors, a fauly MAF, plus quite a few other situations can cause a lean condition.

You have to remember that the MAF is calibrated to work inside a tube that has a specific cross-sectional surface area. This is how the MAF can accurately measure CFM rates. There is also an electronic multiplier inside the MAF that can be modified to help tune it for changes in tube dimensions. The manufacturers of those large MAF sensor housings for Mustangs and such use the multiplier to tune the MAF inside the larger housing. This allows the larger MAF to work without a special tune.

If you change the volume of the tube near the MAF sensor, then the MAF will no longer be calibrated for the true amount of air the engine is receiving. The same amount of air might be entering the engine, but the MAF is "measuring" less air because the velocity has changed from the increase in tube ID. Because the ECU now thinks that the engine is receiving less air, it limits the amount of fuel it injects into the cylinders. When the exhaust finally hits the O2 sensor, it reports back to the ECU that the engine is lean. From here you will usually end up with a check engine light and a lean code.

I do not want to go too far into this, but tuning the velocity inside the intake at specific points is key to a trouble free system.

About your comment that basically states that as long as all the parts in the intake are equal in ID size, then no extra restriction will be introduced....this isn't exactly true either. I can actually taper a long tube over 3' and have less restriction than the same length of tube without any taper. It is all part of controlling the velocity over the entire system.

The advantage that we have is that you can't tune like this on a simple flow bench. I apologize for not being able to speak freely about tuning an intake system, but I'm sure you can understand why.

Let me know if you need me to explain anything that I wrote too.

Cheers!

 

Maybe i missed it in the last 5 pages but is this intake loud like others claim the Volant is? I am looking for an intake and was leaning towards the Airraid Jr due to: A) Noise and drone others claimed to have. B) I dont want to chance a CEL. C) I dont want a polished chrome intake. I also dont really care about "the best #s on a dyno"

 

Exactly what im lookin for! Im thinking of just given the sb intake a try, especially after all the information he has put forth. I sent him an email on sunday but for some reason the connection "timed-out" and said my email wouild be delayed two days. All i really wanted was some more pics of it actually installed, and to ask about the lid.

 

I would like to know if S&B has any information on the noise levels emitted by this intake, as well. Any aftermarket intake that does not have the sound deadening chambers like the stock intake is going to emit more noise. I have read posts from other people who have purchased the Airaid MIT or similar replacement intake tubes and they generally say that it is somewhat louder than stock but not objectionable. That being said, there are ways to modify the stock intake tube to remove some of the restrictions.