Hav'nt I seen studies that you can get the performance with using E85. It might take a few (or more than a few ) dollars for a supercharger, and then reprogram everything, but you can get the performance and some of the MPG back. For those of us who remember when they brought un-leaded gas out and people thought it would be a doom of man-kind, but gear-heads figured out how to re-adjust things to make it work for them. Just my .02

 

Ethanol requires fossil fuel -- lots of it -- to be produced. There is no magic bullet, no technology just over the horizon. Scientific debate continues to rage concerning whether or not ethanol production uses a few more or a few less fossil fuel btus per btu of ethanol.

Let's split the difference and call it a wash. That means the only winners are the already heavily subsidized American farmers, but mostly Archer-Daniels-Midland.

Ethanol was and is a loser except for a very small number of people.

 

Hoo boy is that crap! What, do you think by just ignoring them they will all just go away & leave you alone? They still hate you just for what you represent. How myopic can you get ???

And like another poster mentioned, China is the up&coming dominant world economy - potentially so large as to make us look like a third-world entity. If they get their chit together, they have the potential to suck up every last drop of oil the camel jockeys can produce - and they will ...

.. and then proceed to manufacture most of the worlds goods, like, oh, cars, which we won't be able to afford, 'cause there will be no jobs due to offshore outsourcing of most manufacturing. And guess what, the lunatics will still get their money, and they still will remain hostile against you.

 

"Once e85 becomes profitable you watch how fast the "American" farmer will shop that product globally regardless of how it affects the American driver."

EXACTLY!

I can see it now, we all buy these ethanol burning vehicles and everyone will be dependant on the farmers ethanol, and then they jack up prices. We will be in the same situation except ethanol mpg will be worse and will actually be worse off. If I have to pay $5.00/gallon it doesnt make me feel any better that its lining some farmers pocket, all I know is that its costing me $5.00/gallon and Im getting worse mileage.

I can see it now, 87 octane will be like today's CAM2, kiss your muscle cars and street toys goodbye.

 

This page has a lot of good information about where the USA gets our oil and why it costs so much:

http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

Grim

 

MGDfan -

no doubt that those folks in the middle east would still hate our guts. i believe this too. likewise, they are dangerous and should not be ignored. but do you think that we would have troops over their trying to "stabilize" the region if they weren't sitting on trillions of gallons of oil? who would care about them if they were just sitting on trillions of grains of dessert sand? no body.
if they had no oil, we would still need to protect ourselves from them.... yes.... they would still hate us..... yes..... but would we be trying to build walmarts and mcdonalds in iraq??? and trying to make them like us? i don't think so.

oaw

 

China They already buy more oil from sadi then we do...

 

"Let's split the difference and call it a wash. That means the only winners are the already heavily subsidized American farmers, but mostly Archer-Daniels-Midland".

As an employee of the US Department of Agricultural I deal with farmers everyday. The subsidys that are being referred to are used to keep the price of food down. The US has the lowest price on food in the world. Instead of worrying where the oil for those lifted 4X4's that never leave the highway comes from, stop and think what it would be like if all of your food was imported from overseas. The average american farmer does not receive the bulk of the subsidys it goes to the "Corporate Farm". To end this the people in the inner cities due receive a government subsidy it called Welfare.

 

Not to sound insensitive but Farm subsidies are just rural welfare.

I love how some people complain about inner city folks collecting welfare checks and driving Lexus cars but don't mind 171 billion going to farmers to pad their pockets.

Its the same thing. Get all the bums out of my pocket. I'm tired of paying for them.

 

The average farmer does more work in one day than most people do in a week. The farmers deserve to get some $$ from ethanol being produced. I think they do more work than anyone (up at 6am and work through 10pm).

 

No doubt about the work. I have zero problem with them making as much money as Exxon. Just don't take it from taxpayers and give it to the farmers. That is wealth re-distribution and its a hallmark of socialism.

Don't promise me e85 is a way to free us from foreign oil dependence if the true cost of the product is hidden in my income tax.

 

As there more infrastructure is put in place and there are more refineries for the ethanol, the price will go down and there will not be the subsidy that is now being provided by the government. Thus, the taxpayers won't be paying the bills for the farmers through their taxes, but rather through the purchase of the fuel alone.
There are many ways for the US to get free of the foreign oil companies, it just take initiative and infrastructure to be set in place (which initially may require some governement assistance). Ethanol and hydrogen refill stations don't have 100 years of built up equity, infrastructure, and distribution like the oil refineries have.

 

the best way to free ourselves of foreign oil is a collective lifestyle change

the great majority of the alternative fuels hoopla is pipe dreams, pure and simple...

habit is hard to break

 

Nuclear energy would be a huge savings.

The fuel used to power electrical plants could be replaced.

Nuclear is cleaner and more efficient.


I understand that e85 doesn't have the infrastrucutre which is a disadvantage for sure. Start up costs are always spent in hopes of recouping with profit. Will the farmers repay the gov't subsidies once they are raking in record profits? No.

Outside of e85 farmers still receive payments for their crops which is nothing more than welfare.

 

Except for the fact that the waste product needs to be properly disposed of and will be radioactive for the next 10,000 years!!!!!!!!