Any Ford Factory Reps out there ???

My 2005 F-150 Lariat 5.4 Triton just went down,,,hard...
45,000-miles (Out of warranty)
-
Dealer is telling me that an injector "failed" and hydro-locked the engine with gasoline...

They are telling me I need to put a new engine in at $9000...


Suggestions ?

 

That really sucks. What did you use this truck for? ANd what kind of maintenance did you give it?

 

I would like to hear about proof of this.
Opinion:
Hyrolocking before the engine starts would make it impossible to even turn over a complete revolution and do much damage.
One injector can't spray enough gas while the engine is running to cause hydrolock.
Anything inbetween is quite a strech.
Even if a rep were to see this, they would not do anything about it.
Doesn't work that way.
Was there a coolant leak into the intake etc.
Need to know the facts, just the facts, as Joe Friday used to say on Dragnet.

 

Please check with any company that does major engine work. I'm sure you can beat that price with a re-man engine. Good luck and sorry to hear about your troubles. I have had a cracked cylinder head and have blown 2 coil-over-plugs twice ALL in the same year (2006).

 

Yeah, that happens on those. Not cool, huh?

I'd try contacting Ford Customer Service directly and seeing if they can help you out any. Depending on your relationship with your dealer, they could offer you an after-warranty-assistance adjustment, either splitting the bill between you, the dealer and/or Ford, or they may be able to take care of the bill completely.

ETA - And $9K is a lot of cheese. An FQR reman ain't but like $4800-5000 I think.

 

I'd make a big stink about it being an emission item failure that resulted in total lose of engine. If it leaks it's pumping out millions of pounds of crap in violation of EPA standards. Isn't a EPA emission warranty good up to 50K?? on every type of new vehicle

It's not what you say but how you say it and the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

 

Thanks' for the info guys.

I am heading back to do battle once again
--
I do find it hard to believe an "injector problem" hydro-locked the engine.
Mostly due to the fact there was a lot of white smoke.
I think it was a head gasket, but service rep telling me the coolant showed no signs of contamination...

Either way I think I am going to have to put a new engine myself.
--Saw a modified 4.6 (2006) re-man, even tho it's is smaller the 5.4 is a gamble.

 

Lots of good thoughts in this thread.

Whoa wait a minute. If an injector "leaks", even with the engine running, it simply cannot (by design) cause hyd-lock. It would have to pump ~70CC of fuel in a millisecond. Top fuel engines use approx. 50cc of fuel each time a cylinder fires, and they use over 5 gallons for a 4 second race (not counting the burnout and staging time). Ford injectors cannot allow that much fuel to pass through. Even if the engine was turned off, the ONLY way that it could pass that much fuel would be if the fuel pump relay stuck AND an injector stuck open, and even then, it would have to be a one-in-a-million deal. The piston would have to be at the middle of it's stroke, both valves closed. Besides, if that was the case I would think that you would have one bent rod and maybe, but not likely, a cracked cylinder wall and collapsed top ring land. I don't see that happening, at least, not in my opinion. The 6.0 diesel suffered from this problem when it was first introduced, but a diesel engine has VERY little combustion space. When the piston is at TDC, there is usually less than 15-20cc of combustion area. That is why ANY injector leakage on a diesel is not good. The 5.4 3V has a LOT more space in there...somewhere around 60-70cc, IIRC.

Has anyone actually disassembled the engine to look inside? If it was me, I'd want to see what's actually wrong with it with my own eyes.

I too work in a dealership and I know what goes on. Not everyone is completely honest, especially in car dealers.

In fact, there are companies who specialize in injector testing & repair. It doesn't cost that much to have them flowed and tested. It might be something to look into.

 

A failing head-gasket (or even intake gasket) can quite readily hydrolock a motor. Considering the white smoke, that would be my bet. Fuel burns black. What's more, the coolant doesn't need to show signs of contamination. It depends on when the gasket failed, how bad it was, how long it ran in a failed state, and so on. The only way you really know for sure is to pull the head and see if you find coolant pooled in the dead hole.

But, a hydrolock from a failing injector? On a stock motor, that just doesn't happen. If the injector is left open and the motor isn't running, the fuel pump is off so there's nothing to push fuel in. There is some residual pressure, but nowhere near enough to cause a hydrolock, so it will only piddle out a few drops and that's pretty much it, no where near enough to hydrolock it. If there were, it would still take so long to drip in there, the motor would likely be cold by then. On top of that, as it sits the fuel will find its way around the rings and into the oil pan. You will find a decent amount of fuel in the oil over time. And if there for some reason is enough fuel to lock it (like you poured gas down its throat, the starter will not push it past the first stroke, which means it won't start. It will just click, and that's that. You may burn up your battery cables or cable to the starter, but it just won't run if it can't push past it. Even if for some strange miracle, a couple holes managed to fire (which just doesn't on that first stroke with a cold motor), but if it did, those couple fires will not generate enough torque to bend a rod, it will just make a dull thud, and nothing more (makes a cool hissing sound as the pressure makes it's way around the rings and valves though). If the motor hasn't even started yet, but is just being turned over by the starter, there's no momentum to cause damage from hydrolock and the starter is nowhere near powerful enough to cause damage either. A motor under power, however, certainly does.

You have to keep in mind, in a running motor, the cylinder is spilling its contents into the exhaust very, very quickly. To displace enough air with incompressible liquid in that cylinder while its running to lock it takes an incredibly fast flow of liquid, far, FAR more than ANY #19 injector could ever ever ever ever flow. Otherwise, it just puts out the fire and you have a miss. Think about it. Also, when an injector fails, it usually fails in the "off" state, so no more fuel can move. It's very rare for an injector to fail and allow fuel flow. But when that does happen, the failure keeps the injector's plunger from fully seating which results in a slow leak, not an injector that's "wide open". These types of failures were far more common with the old GM TBI systems. See, the fuel pressure and the spring try to close the valve by pushing the plunger into the seat, so the injector's naturals state is to flow no fuel at all.

While it's running, the cylinder will blow the raw fuel out the exhaust as fast as its being pumped in. The only way you could hydrolock a regular running engine with fuel is if you lost the exhaust valve. Fuel will still make it in there, but have no where to get out. There won't be any air moving through the intake runner, but the fuel will still puddle in the hole.

Hydrolocking with water is somewhat common, however. Especially with cold/ram air setups that draw in air from under the front bumper, and gasket failure. Some of the Stang crowd did this with kits. But the kits have an opening in the bottom of the air-box to allow water to quickly drain out. With the guys who rigged it and used dryer vent tubing, but didn't make an opening (hoping to increase the "ram" affect), water hydrolock isn't uncommon. Running through standing water, into a ditch, or even through a big puddle could cram enough water into their home-brew ram-air to lock the motor. Your cooling system is close to 16psi when warm. If you had a big leak in a gasket, you could move A LOT of coolant VERY QUICKLY and easily lock it.

I would suggest taking it to someone else before plunking down 9 grand. Also, what exactly is it doing NOW that make them think it was hydrolocked?????

 

[QUOTE=tritonpwr]

Think about it. Also, when an injector fails, it usually fails in the "off" state, so no more fuel can move. It's very rare for an injector to fail and allow fuel flow. But when that does happen, the failure keeps the injector's plunger from fully seating which results in a slow leak, not an injector that's "wide open". These types of failures were far more common with the old GM TBI systems. See, the fuel pressure and the spring try to close the valve by pushing the plunger into the seat, so the injector's naturals state is to flow no fuel at all.

Wow, very descriptive. I do know this. My 06 SuperCrew 3V 5.4 with only 422 miles on it was missing badly under acceleration. Mine however was emitting a darker gray coolered smoke(Under Acceleration)from the exhaust. After three trips to the dealership and over 50 days in the shop. They finally told me that "Two injectors Laid-Over(hung Open)and were dumping fuel into the cylinder." They said this damaged both converters and contaminated the oil. The dealership stated that the cause was due to my "True Dual" exhaust. I was told that if I did not convert the exhaust to a "Y" pipe or single in, dual out(SI/DO)muffler system that they would void my warranty. The dealership did fix my truck. they logged over five hundred miles on my truck while attempting to fix it. I have over 8K on it now with No[additional]problems.

I realize I strayed from the original post. I was just trying to say that "Sometimes" injectors due fail OPEN. I have also read several post where fairly NEW F150's are "Hydrolocking". It scares the crap out of me!! These things are not cheap and to imagine 9K dollars for a replacement engine, through dealership, on a 2005 vehicle(all owners expense)just is not fair. I hope you are able to get some relief from the dealership. BoB

 

I've had several '05+ 5.4 3Vs with leaking injectors cause all kinds of havoc. The latest one, an '06 Mark LT, #5 stuck and bent the connecting rod for that hole badly enough to where the bottom of the rod struck the skirt of the block while the engine was running.

If you work at a Ford dealer, and you haven't had an '05 or newer 5.4 3V with sticking injectors, well, I guess you haven't been on the job that long?

 

Those new generation injectors, while I do have an appreciation for their better atomization bringing better efficiency and power to the table, I find the design and real-world reliability gravely lacking.

The older injectors, like what you find in every multi-point injection system from 86 on up, were a tried and true design with literally hundreds of millions of reliable examples out in the real world. Their failure, even in the 300k+ mile range was exceptionally rare. To be honest, of the 30+ injected vehicles I have owned since then, even with >#50 injectors on turbo or blown race cars, I have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER had one FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have heard of it, I have seen it, but in the hundreds of injectors, thousands of horsepower, and hundreds of thousands of miles I've been with them, it has just never happened to me!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Just another case of over-engineering causing problems IMHO!

 

'04 5.4 3V injectors are fine. Ford changed suppliers in '05, and that's when the defecation hit the oscillation.

 

My Ford F150 5.4 (2005) Just failed a couple of weeks ago with number 8 injector sticking open. It took out the number 2 cat. Should I look at anything else for this failure? Ford did not change the oil or anything else.
My truck has 20k miles on it. They replaced the injector and cat on warranty.

 

They should have changed the oil as well. That's part of the service procedure for failed injectors, since fuel diluted oil doesn't work too well at protecting bearings and such in the engine.