I was asked to post this From KB..To Get The FACTS Straight!!! JL

LightningTuner
Senior Member &
Supporting Vendor

Registered: Aug 1999
Location: Sound Beach, NY, US
Posts: 2952

Soooo it's okay for the KB supporters to say the KB is the best thing since sliced bread with zero to back that up, but it's not okay for Works supporters to do the same (with data no less) huh?

Listen, I know most of the people in the Lightning community are new to Fords, and you can hardly say anything around here without it stirring up some contreversay that leads to WWIII. But there is no secret in the world of Ford performance that Kenne Bell blowers not that great. Ask a bunch of people who've owned KB blowers in the past, and you'll get 9 out of 10 of them telling you about the lackluster performance, failure problems, and horrid KB customer service. There is enough evidence of this out there on the net to keep people busy for weeks worth of searching.

For those of you who aren't into listening to what other people have to say, here's a more technical reason for the statement I made about the Works/Whipple being a better quality unit. Years ago, Jim Bell and Art Whipple worked together. Without getting into the details of it (which I'm honestly not sure of), they eventually split up. Jim Bell started selling Autorotor twin screws, and Art Whipple started selling his Whipplechargers. At first, both units were about equal, and had about the same failure rates. Whipple eventually got involved with Lyshom, who is the pioneer and leader of the twin screw design. With that change, the quality of the Whipple rotor packs drastically improved. Failure rates on the Whipples dropped substantially to almost zero. The KB Autorotors continued to fail and have problems on a regular basis.

As just stated, Whipples rotor packs are built by Lyshom, the originator of the twin screw design. Whipple makes their own cases and intakes per vehicle application (in this case, it's Works making the supporting parts, as the Lightning kit is being developed by Works, not Whipple). Not only is Lyshom the pioneer in twin screws, but the company is quite large, has hundreds of employees, and is QS-9000 certified. That certification means that their blowers are high enough quality that they can be, and ARE, used on OEM automotive manufacturer applications. ALL current twin screws used on production cars are Lyshom/Whipple blowers. Even the aftermarket tuners like Roush and Saleen use Whipples on their current blown cars.

Autorotor on the other hand, is a small company, made up of 21 people. Their rotor packs are made by Opcon. Opcon is a company who's main business is making large air movers for industrial heating/cooling systems. Superchargers were just an add on market for them. Autorotor superchargers do NOT meet QS-9000 certification, and are used on NO production OEM vehicles. The KB version blowers had always used a case extrusion, with end caps and lego block intakes installed on them. The Lightning guys are actually VERY lucky, because the KB Lightning blower if the first KB unit to ever have a dedicated cast case. Unfortunately, it's still a top inlet, and according to Jim Bell himself, the top inlet is 10% down on efficiency compared to a rear inlet (taken from the MM&FF KB test article).

Now, with that all said, let me say this-- I am not saying the KB doesn't work, perform, look good, or whatever else people want to think. It's obviously already proven itself to work quite well. The reason I wrote all of the above, is to back up my statement when I said the Works/Whipple unit is a better quality blower, and worth the extra expense. When I say something, I usually MEAN it.

I'm sure there will be KB advocates that will come back with all sorts of debatable replies to this, but the simple truth is everything I wrote is FACT. You can search and look it all up if you like. You don't have to like it, you can go cry in the corner if you want, you can not believe it, I don't really care. It's fact for those who wanted to know, do with it what you like.










So you can set the record straight with your customers, I feel Kenne Bell must address some of the statements made by PSP. I hope you'll allow me to respond. I don't participate in internet forums - and if this is the kind of bad mouthing, psycho babble and commercialism that goes on - I'm glad I don't. As I understand it, PSP is a parts supplier to Lightning owners, as is Kenne Bell. I thought these sites were for enthusiasts to exchange information and enjoy the commaraderie - not a forum for suppliers to bash competitors and promote their own products.

First of all, Mr. Mennella's statement "Ask a bunch of people who've owned KB blowers in the past, and you'll get 9 out of 10 of them telling you about lackluster performance, failure problems and horrid KB customer service." That's B.S. There's no truth to this. Kenne Bell has been in business since 1968. That's 34 years. We could not have possibly survived if that statement were true. We're not perfect, but we have always done our very best to service our customers and products. We even send out questionares with all our supercharger kits and I can assure Mr. Mennella not even 1 out of 100 of our customers register such complaints.

"Failure problems"? I don't know where Mr. Mennella gets his information. We have been selling Autorotor for 11 years. We never experienced a single bearing or rotor failure from Autorotor. We have, of course, experienced some failures from lack of oil, overfilling with oil and excess heat (overspinning) but the "quality" Mr. Mennella refers to - one in five hundred - and we have the data to prove it. And yes, we experienced a few failures with the new Lightning supercharger, and as you well know, we remedied it without sacrificing performance.

"Horrid KB service"? Again, how could we remain in business for 34 years if our service was poor, our products didn't make power and everything blew up? I truly believe that Kenne Bell is the best at what we do. We don't operate out of some house or a cave and sit around and snipe at people. We have all tech equipment, dyno, software, tools, resources, test vehicles and people - all of who are knowledgeable in tech and product. If we weren't, why is Kenne Bell a favorite choice for magazines to run their dyno tests? Because they get hi-tech, accurate, no B.S. tests with supporting data acquisition at our facility.

Mr. Mennella is also very confused about the Kenne Bell - Whipple relationship. Whipple had been selling Autorotor kits for GM products since 1988 I believe and switched to Lysholm in 2000. In 1991, we also began selling Autorotor Ford kits and later the Dodge kits. Autorotor is the only supercharger Kenne Bell has ever sold. So, Mr. Mennella is wrong again when he says Kenne Bell "started selling Autorotors when we split up and Art Whipple started selling his Whipplechargers." He's only off 9 years on that one. There are no "Whipplechargers" per se - only Autorotor and Lysholm. Mr. Menella goes on to wrongly claim that "Whipple eventually got involved with Lysholm and the quality of the rotor packs drastically improved." Not true. "Failure rates on the Whipples dropped substantially." Not true. "The KB Autorotors continued to fail on a regular basis." Also a lie. Kenne Bell experienced no significant failures, nor did Whipple. That's precisely why we stayed with Autorotor - no problems. Art switched to Lysholm for his own reasons and it has performed very well for him. I'd suggest that Mr. Mennella contact Art Whipple personally to verify my statements and perhaps better educate himself before running off at the mouth. Art and I remain good friends. I respect him as a person and a businessman. I think the feeling is mutual. Both the Kenne Bell/Autorotor and Whipple/Lysholm twin screws are exceptional high quality and efficient superchargers. You will never hear Kenne Bell knock a Lysholm.

Mr. Mennella states that Lysholm is the originator of the twin screw design. Again, he's confused. He has the engineer, Alf Lysholm, originator of the twin screw from the 1940's mixed up with the company, Lysholm Technologies, which was founded in 1995. It's my understanding they have 6 employees, not "hundreds" as Mr. Mennella states. Wrong again. Either way, why would it matter how many employees a company has if they put out a quality product. Obviously, Mr. Mennella disagrees with this. He may manage his own 200 employee company and speak from experience.

I was informed that neither Lysholm or Autorotor are QS9000 certified. No big deal. It's easy to get certified. We may do it this year. In any event, QS9000 has nothing to do with the comparative performance or quality of a supercharger - NOTHING. Apparently, Mr. Mennella thinks QS9000 is responsible for some horsepower or ? Eaton is QS9000 certified and produces a high quality product but look how the Autorotor and Lysholm twin screws outperform them in every area. It clearly didn't help them.

Mr. Mennella is again mistaken when he states "All current twin screws used on production cars are Lysholm/Whipple blowers." Not true. As of this writing, there are no production cars using the Lysholm/Whipple. Mercedes and Mazda used a Japanese IHI twin screw. However, the new Ford GT40 will use one and Autorotor is working on some applications. Kenne Bell is elated to see the twin screw finally receive the deserved recognition by the OEM's. "Even the aftermarket tuners like Roush and Saleen use Whipples on their current blown cars." A half truth. Saleen, yes. Roush, no. Wrong again Mr. Mennella. Roush uses an Eaton. However, a new 4.6 kit developed jointly by Kenne Bell and Roush will utilize an Autorotor twin screw. What has this got to do with which twin screw is better?

 

Mr. Mennella further implies Autorotor is some little company who's primary business is large industrial compressors and superchargers are just an "add on" market for them. Opcon Autorotor has responded to Mr. Mennellas post by pointing out that "He has mixed up SRM with Opcon Autorotor" which produces twin screw superchargers. Opcon SEM manufactures ignition systems for the OEM's, Opcon Reac manufactures actuators and solenoids for OEM's.

Now, here's Mr. Mennella's summary statement - "I'm sure there will be KB advocates that will come back with all sorts of debatable replies to this, but the simple truth is everything I wrote is FACT." Johnny, I'm hard pressed to find this "simple truth" and "FACT" Sal refers to. It should be painfully obvious to Sal that what he said is not FACT - but instead - fabrications and outright untruthful statements that have no merit. And this guy has posted on this site 2941 times? In another post Sal says to you "I gave in depth details as to why I feel Whipple is better than Autorotor." Really. "Details." Somehow I must have missed all these "in depth details." Kenne Bell has been thrashed by Mr. Mennella and I've responded to his so called "FACTS."

I've already said both superchargers are excellent high quality products. It is not my intent to bad mouth anyone or their products. I sincerely appreciate you going to bat for us on the internet - and most of all, your honesty. Now I'd like to explain to you why and how Kenne Bell conceived our supercharger in it's current form. I think it will clear up a lot of misunderstandings that exist with both JLP and Kenne Bell potential customers. Then, as you say Johnny, "let the customer decide." Mr. Mennella is right about one fact. I did say the rear entry was 10% better than a top entry concept for the twin screw, but that was for the EXISTING Autorotor and Lysholm twin screw without an inlet plenum. Now, here are the real FACTS. The plenum and top inlet is the key. The Kenne Bell Lightning supercharger is a totally new concept and design that incorporates a plenum area at the rear of the supercharger rotors. This in effect converts our supercharger into the more desireable rear inlet concept. With this unique design, we don't give up 10% in efficiency. Note: The Eaton/Roots is not affected as much - if at all - by a top inlet. Why didn't we just use one of our existing superchargers as the Works did? There were several reasons. We wanted a direct bolt on replacement with no adaptors that utilized the stock hi flow inlet. We decided on an internal bypass valve like the stock Lightning. There were good reasons for this. Once we had designed the supercharger itself, the most important consideration was the inlet manifold design. Our tests indicated the stock "one bend" design flowed 1000 cfm, enough for 700HP. It was an excellent straight flow design with one easy turn into the supercharger. It didn't get any better than that. The 1000 cfm flow number equalled the flow of the largest oval throttle body. We did the math and the dyno and you did the 10.56/126 - with the stock manifold and no nitrous. We knew that inlet air flow was the #1 consideration for the twin screw. There was no way we were able to make a "double bend" rear entry manifold work as well. It just wouldn't flow as much air and would restrict the air flow to the supercharger. Restrict the air inlet flow 10% to a 2.3 supercharger and it becomes a 2.07 (2.3-.23 =2.07). That was totally unacceptable so a rear inlet design was ruled out. As you can now see, it isn't just supercharger size. The combination of manifold and supercharger design is critical to air flow and HP. For ultra high HP potential, we chose to open the inlet up to over twice the size of the stock Eaton opening, thereby increasing the efficiency, capacity and boost of the kit. This was accomplished with a replaceable adaptor that could be easily switched without removing the supercharger.

Autorotor had been developing some new killer rotor profiles. Our testing indicated these profiles were the best we'd seen for a twin screw. These profiles, coupled with maximized rotor length, a rear plenum and a "single bend" inlet made this the most efficient (lowest parasitic loss and coolest air temp) of any twin screw we had ever tested. It was clear that we needed a completely new top inlet / rear plenum supercharger if we were to offer the best possible supercharger for the Lightning. We subsequently spent $100,000 in engineering, testing and tooling this new supercharger casting. Clearly the cost is less if we had selected an off the shelf Autorotor 2.2 or 2.4. Using an existing production billet case 2.2 (134) or 2.4 (144) was never an option. Quite frankly, the billet case 2.0 (122) you originally ran was camoflouge. At that time, the Eaton/Roots concept was being promoted as direct competition to us, but I knew full well that my ultimate competition was to be a twin screw adaption or "plug in" of the failed Eaton kit. NO ONE was going to step up with a NEW direct bolt on supercharger.

There's one last point I'd like to make. I don't think it's fair to bash Eaton, Whipple or Kenne Bell on product failures. It's O.K. to report problems, but this has turned into a food fight. I've always said it's not the problems that matter. Everyone has them. It's what you do about them that counts. I believe all 3 companies make a quality product, give good service and stand behind their products. I know the owners personally. If anyone wants to know about a Kenne Bell problem, why don't they just give us a call instead of resorting to this bashing and theorizing.

Yes, we experienced a few problems on the first run of 12 superchargers. You know all about it. We didn't hide anything. We corrected the problem by increasing case to rotor clearance without sacrificing any efficiency, retested a bunch of them and the problem was solved. You ran a 10.59/126 at 24 psi. That's a lot of power. This should satisfy 99% of our customers. However, for the all out racer, we'll offer the Flowzilla inlet - and another upcoming Kenne Bell surprise. I'll send you prototypes to test when they are finished.

In answer to your question on testing the Kenne Bell vs. the Works - no I haven't tested their "system" - but I will. I have tested their 2.3 supercharger, but as I said, it must be tested WITH the "double turn" inlet, as they operate as one unit. It's like flow testing an engine without the cylinder heads, or heads without an intake manifold. Another important and misunderstood phenomenon is supercharger rating i.e. liters or cubic inches (60.8 cu" = 1 liter). Just because a supercharger is rated at 112cu" (1.84L) doesn't mean it produces 112cu" at all rpm and boost. Look at our Eaton 112 tests on the Lightning in the latest issue of 5.0 Mustang Magazine. Between 4000 and 6000 the Eaton's boost drops off 2.5 psi from 13.0 to 10.5 and 417HP whereas the Kenne Bell increases 1 psi and makes 72 more HP. That's proof that the Eaton cannot "keep up." It's not as efficient. It's unable to supply enough air to maintain boost. When comparing superchargers, this is a quick and easy test you can use. If a twin screw "drops off," it's almost always from inlet restriction. Have you EVER seen the boost in your Kenne Bell drop off? I'd predict the Kenne Bell 2.3 (140) won't be upstaged. And let us not overlook parasitic (HP) losses.

There is a 12" stack of Kenne Bell test data on inlet manifolds, throttle bodies, chips, meters, filters, inlet manifolds, exhaust, headers, cats, etc. but the "heart" of it all is the supercharger. Let's continue to supply our customers with honest, accurate information. As always, Kenne Bell will back our products and service them and provide the best tech possible. You have clearly proved the power potential, reliability and ease of installation of our supercharger. We're good to go. In the end, I think the Lightning owners, Kenne Bell and JLP all benefit.


Regards,
Jim Bell

 

It should be one hell of a year. One that I will be watching closely as I see a aftermarket blower in my future. Not tomorrow but someday.
We will see.

VINNIE

 

In all the B.S. regarding which BLOWer is better than the other....... my thoughts are that JL's performance numbers speak for themselves. You can talk all you want about theory, production requirements etc., but I have seen the JL/KB in action and it works. PERIOD. The WORKS is just a promise to many at the moment. I have seen and recorded a 10.59 second KB run on my video camera for all to see. Until I see the WORKS post similar numbers I remain skeptical. Until then there should be no discussion. The JL/KB performance speaks for itself.

BTJ

 

-Mat-

 

BTJ. How is the Works just a promise? They are very much in production and are being finished now.

 

i believe that these after market blowers are going to be the same. i dont think that the slight more effeciency of the rear loading + the slight bit more displacement will make that much of a noticeable difference especially for the street trucks. although in all this im still gonna go to the works, i think its a slick looking blower.

 

BTJ. How is the Works just a promise? They are very much in production and are being finished now.

Apparently you don't get the meaning of my statement. JL has run 10.59 seond ET with blower alone. Show me a Works 140 blower running the same ET/MPH with just blower then I'll believe. Until then it's all smoke and mirrors. Nuff said.

BTJ

 

The funniest part for me when I read the above statement was when I saw that it was written by Jim Bell. The only reason why is because many years ago when I lived in Los Angeles, I was building up my Jeep ('67 CJ-5 with a buick V6). I called Kenne-Bell to ask a few questions about a few of the KB products. Jim answered the phone and then proceeded to talk my ear off! Don't get me wrong, I appreciated the time that he gave me. Reading the above just reminded me of that conversation.

 

Hmm, welp.. I guess we will see then.. Just remember something. Theres more to ET's... Look at the MPH. It tells the whole story and then some. Also weight reduction plays a part in the whole game as well.

 

A new blower is definately in my future as well , so i'll be paying very close attention to things like this. Valid points have been made.

I can't wait to see this coming year .


Personally, I think all you tuners/vendors do a great job, I don't care what you sell, you've made our trucks better just being here and helping.

keep up the great work everyone and let the races begin!

Jack

 

 

JL: I think your the biggest puss that ever walked, you should put a KB w/N20 on one of your trucks!!! I want to see some 9's from ya!!! Or we could just throw that combo on my truck Just keep up the good work and you'll be tha man this year!!!

 

<-- goes to get a beer this is gonna take a while to read.

 

I feel dizzy after reading all that!