Perfect. It is good to hear that there are dealers that are out there that can still treat customers with respect. Of course it likely helped out significantly that you seem reasonable, rational, and didn't enter the serivce area with a chip on your shoulder as big as your truck. Not that it might not have been justified, but keeping it cool often helps.

The plugs are installed by an electric torque gun (one head at a time) in ever engine plant I have ever been in. I have been in quite a few. If properly setup they will install the plug in the head with the right toruqe and the threads intact (if the threads were intact to begin with) virtually 100% of the time. They have torque feedback and they will stop running if the plugs are too tight or too loose. I do distinctly remember one of the spark plug topics here stated the plugs blew out of an engine that had never had the plugs out of the heads. Even so I'm betting that the heads are a design that requires careful tightening to avoid trouble (as suggested eariler in the thread). Sounds like it is time for the dealers (and independants for that matter) to start usig torque wrenches on the plugs and writing the value used on the work order.

Anyway, glad you arent going to be out big $ over this.

 

Kaoliver,

Glad it sounds like it's working out for you. It seems reasonable that the dealer didn't have any responsibility in the failure as you mentioned that you had your plugs changed in August. That's almost 4 months ago. If anything, their seems to be a possible flaw in the design in some of the heads on the Ford engines. It seems to be a random problem, as the majority of Ford heads haven't experienced this problem. Hopefully when you get your truck back you will experience years of trouble free trucking.

 

Hi adaycj and all,

No, Kaoliver just entered the area with a tow-truck as big as his truck.

The fact the dealer replaced plugs recently was probably what put the service writer in such a motivated state to want to get Ford to help. Their recent service meant Kaoliver had an even stronger case had he gone to small claims court: he could've sued the dealer who did the repair, and could've claimed over-torquing as an reasonable aggravating factor for what is reasonably seen as a fundamental design flaw on Ford's part. It was in the dealer's interest to address it now, and try to shift the blame back to Ford. Funny how a repair department admit a "known problem" when it serves their purpose.

BTW, when my incident occurred, I couldn't "enter the area with an attitude", as I didn't know anything about the whole spark plug problem. I just thought it was a random breakdown (unlike many here, I'm not really into autos), and I didn't have the benefit of the full history that some are benefitting from now.

In fact, it wasn't until the work was already being started at an independent repair shop that I came on-line and started to realize no one was really looking at this issue, much less trying to raise the awareness and get it addressed by Ford. No one at my local Ford repair was willing to say that a problem existed, and certainly not FoMoCo.

Naviman, as far as the wish for "years of trouble-free trucking", unfortunately I personally have seen a truck at my independent mechanics that had this same problem repeated within one year, despite replacing the cylinder head after the first incident; there's a few posted accounts where it's happened more than twice!! There's also accounts of this happening on low-mileage engines, so predicting the mileage at which you'll see a repeat performance is impossible to predict (without the data Ford must be collecting on the issue?). The design of the cylinder head IS the problem, so replacing it with one of the same design only buys you time.

I'm afraid the only hope for truly "trouble-free trucking" is if Ford Corp, not Ford dealers and Ford mechanics, comes clean on the issue and offers a solution based on their experience and data.

I'm driving on a heli-coil (after paying $2,000 out of pocket, with the cylinder head removed), and it has me worried every time I hit the road.

Chris

 

Feefer,

I know you have spent a lot of time and effort in this crusade, and I am sure it is appreciated by all. I'm not trying to make light of the situation but in the case of kaoliver, i would have to disagree with your assessment.

As far as the dealers responsibility on kaolivers truck, it was 4 months after the sparklug change that the plug exhibited the problem. Is there suppose to be a lifetime warranty on sparkplug labor? According to you, the plug problem has been demonstrated on low mileage and high mileage vehicles alike, and ones that have had plugs changed and ones that haven't. So I don't see how you can hold the dealer accountable for a sparkplug blowing 4 months after the work had been done. You are making a lot of assumptions without any documented proof that the dealer was negligent. Fortunately for kaoliver, his diligence paid off and he is getting his truck repaired at a much more reasonable cost. It's nice to see that the dealer did step up and help him.

 

There was one other thing that I had forgotten to mention in my post from last night that may be of interest to others that may have this problem in the future. One of the other printouts that the service writer had showed me was about Ford recommended fixes for different engine problems. There was one section that specifically dealt with damaged sparkplug holes. Blown out plugs were never mentioned. The only recommended repair approved by Ford was to replace the Head. It stated that helicoils and I think the other thing mentioned was called a taper lock should not be used to repair damaged sparkplug threads. I think this sheet was printed off of Fords dealer connection web site.

 

Ford "PO6" Program?

Is this a program they extend to customers who have been back at least six times and who they've "pissed-off?"

Good ol' Ford!

 

Hi K

Glad to hear your getting some $$$ help. Yeah i know...still hard to shell out your own $$$ for this repair, but thats a BIG help.

You did have a course of action...pay your bill/haul truck away.
I thought that was pretty good.

Question....your truck 97... Appears you'll be using the 100,000 mi. warranty? If so...how long before warr. expires? Do you put fast mileage on your truck? Just curious.

Good luck...OT

 

The dealer called me today and told me they ordered the parts but the head is back ordered. The head won't be in until at least Monday. I asked the service writer if they could give a loaner to use and he said that they couldn't give me a loaner but because of the delay in getting the new head they would be willing to go 50/50 with me on a rental. So for now I'm driving a Focus @ $17a day.

He also said that they had a chance to total the whole job up. New head,coilpack,gaskets and fluids brought the total to $2600. He said my part will be $600 and Ford would cover the $2000


Old timer the powertrain warranty they are giving me will run out in June of 03'. Its 6 years from the time the truck was originally titled/warranted . I purchased this truck used in January of 2001. It had 30000 miles on it when I bought it. I commute 60 miles every day so I put on about 20000 a year.

 

Hi Naviman,

You're missing my point.

We have pretty good reason to believe that the problem is primarily Ford's poor design of the cylinder head. That's the REAL and primary problem.

However, Kaoliver could make a pretty reasonable case by claiming that the dealer mis-torqued the plug, resulting in blow-out a few months later. Unlike the dealer's assertion, it IS likely that improper torquing could damage the threads, and then it's just a matter of time until they fail.

Once hot exhaust gases starts escaping via the tinest compression leak around the plug, then the rate of damage to remaining threads adjacent to the leak is vastly accelerated (it's like a tiny crack in a dam that WILL expand with time). Then it's just a matter of time before thread wear is sufficient to allow the plug to blow.....

I (and some others) heard a compression leak for about a month before the plug blew, but most of us wrote it off as an exhaust leak (some took their truck to a mechanic, who couldn't locate the source). Some will hear a rattling sound, due to the plug oscillating or vibrating in the plug bore (which probably indicates late stage, where an increased rate of damage to the threads means the plug is about to fly).

As I've said before, there is NO safe torque for a plug, once a certain level of damage to the threads has already occurred. Torque specs for the F-150 apply ONLY to an undamaged or brand-new head, and trying to apply these torque values to compromised threads is fool-hardy, at best.

In that regard, the dealer couldn't really win in performing Kaoliver's plug replacement by simply replacing plugs. But the fact is they performed the replacement, and assume some liability for the work performed in exchange for the labor they charged for.

It's like replacing only brake pads, when in reality the brake drums also need repair. In the event of brake failure, the repair shop faces liability for failing to recognize the real problem, and recommend the proper repair.

And that's why I think they were more likely to help Kaoliver..... They have greater liability.

Chris

 

Hmm,

I guess we just don't agree on this one.

Let's look at it this way. Let's assume there is a design flaw in the heads and the dealer changed the plugs and torqued them to spec (there is nothing to support otherwise). If the flaw is in the design, then how can a dealer be responsible for doing everything proper? You, yourself have said that people have had blown plugs on engines that have never had plugs changed. Now you want to blame the dealer for this particular problem. Why haven't you blamed the do-it yourselfers on this forum who have experienced blown plugs after changing their own plugs? What's the difference?

 

Hi Naviman,

Just to make it clear, I primarily blame FoMoCo: they have (or at least should have, by this point in time) an awareness of a problem, and are expected to take ownership of the problem and assume a leadership role for correcting a problem with the vehicles THEY produced, a problem THEY created with what appears to be a fundamental design problem.

Investigating the problem and offering a reasonable fix to current owners is what is expected of auto manufacturers by agencies like NHTSA (just like Ford did with the 'door crack' issue: read the article linked on the home page of this site, as it provides insight to what SHOULD currently be happening at Ford with this issue).

A bit of laying some groundwork:

A professional mechanic is held to a higher standard than a backyard mechanic: the keyword there is PROFESSIONAL.

In general, a professional is a member of professional organizations, but more importantly, is licensed by the state they work in to engage in their trade after passing tests that demonstrate basic professional competence. A professional is thus granted the right, if not a monopoly, by the state to charge for their services.

As a trade-off for restricting entry to everyone who wants to engage in a particular trade, the state expects the professional license holder to possess special knowledge beyond that of the layman (e.g. a back-yard mechanic who tinkers on their own vehicle).

It should be no surprise to anyone that professionals, by the act of providing services to consumers, place themselves at some risk for liability: it's why medical doctors purchase malpractice insurance, and why mechanics buy liability coverage. It protects them from mistakes made in the line of duties, whether due to negligence or (possibly) intentional errors.

Now, to answer your question:

Ford issues TSBs and other official communications to it's network of repair centers, providing notification of known problems and directions for how to carry out recommended repairs to correct these problems. If a mechanic fails to follow a TSB or other official directive, they will bear a greater share of the risk in the event of a subsequent problem arising from their negligence, since he didn't follow procedures.

Kaoliver referred to these directives recently, and it's been mentioned by others on this board:

One of the other printouts that the service writer had showed me was about Ford recommended fixes for different engine problems. There was one section that specifically dealt with damaged sparkplug holes. Blown out plugs were never mentioned. The only recommended repair approved by Ford was to replace the Head. It stated that helicoils and I think the other thing mentioned was called a taper lock should not be used to repair damaged sparkplug threads. I think this sheet was printed off of Fords dealer connection web site.

No TSB or recall has been issued by Ford on the blown plug issue (to my knowledge), but Kaoliver's service writer and mechanic admit to knowing that the issue of blown plugs exists for the F-150, and obviously they're aware of the above directive (since they showed it to Kaoliver). And even if they were NOT aware of it at the time his plugs were changed, they should've been: the expectation of having such knowledge is part of what you pay for, when forking over for the expensive plug replacement.

An application of the "reasonable professional" standard suggests that the mechanic performing the plug replacement should be aware of the blown plug problem, and should thus take extraordinary efforts to verify the integrity of the threads at the time of plug replacement; if threads are not within acceptable limits, he should advise the owner of the recommended repair (rather than just replacing the spark plugs, crossing one's fingers, and pray they "hold").

What's the likelihood that the mechanic actually evaluated the integrity of the threads, taking reasonable and simple steps to verify if the plug threads were intact? Reasonably unlikely, due to the fact the plug blew out within a few months. A look at his repair records may reveal if he did so, if he documented his inspection (as adaycj mentioned, it may be time to record torque values used as well as condition of the threads, since this information would also be a good thing to have documented in case the matter went to court).

But if the mechanic HAD inspected the threads and detected damage to the threads, do you think it reasonable for him to insert plugs at recommended torque, not stopping to question if those recommended torque values apply to bores with compromised threads? I think that's a question even a lay-person would ask themselves in this situation (as some have asked on this board).

This is similar to asking what torque is appropriate for a wood-screw when the hole in the wood it's drilled into is already stripped? The answer is, "unsafe at ANY torque", i.e. the concept of "proper torque" no longer applies when threads are stripped.

And even if the mechanic HAD detected damage to the threads, shouldn't he have notified Kaoliver of the problem (which is one application of a common legal concept called "duty to warn", e.g. the responsibility of repair-persons to notify the customer of any defects, even if unrelated to the original repair, that are discovered during the course of performing the work-order repair)?

I think the repair department realized a judge or jury would reasonably conclude the mechanic bore some responsibility, and it would be an unwinnable case; hence their willingness to blame Ford and offer "PO6" to Kaoliver.....

BTW, Kaoliver, I'm glad it worked out for you: thanks for posting your helpful account here. It'll help us other poor slobs who weren't as blessed with our timing.

Chris

 

Feefer,

When was the last time you worked as a mechanic for a shop? Your expectations are well beyond the norm. How many mechanics in a shop do you know that document everything they do to a vehicle? You have also assumed an awful lot that the mechanic didn't take the proper procedure to doing the plug change. You can't make blind assumptions. You need proof before you go off accusing somebody of negligence. Don't make this crusade into a witchhunt and start pointing the finger at anybody you can. The dealership , with a little pressure from kaoliver, stepped up and helped him with a problem. They should be commended rather than blindly accused of negligence. Not all shops or mechanics are crooks as some people have alluded to on here.

One thing to look at, is what is the likely hood that the truck had damaged threads in the sparkplug holes? Very small. Although I agree that there has been a problem with the Ford engines on this matter, it has been a very small minority compared to the vast majority of the engines Ford has produced. You admit that there has been no TSB from Ford on this, so to expect every mechanic to take the time to inspect every spark plug hole on every engine a shop services seems a little unreasonable to me. Unless they noticed something unusual such as some metal shavings or damaged spark plug threads, then I would expect them to change out the sparkplugs just like on any other vehicle.

 

Naviman,

You're missing my point.

These are not MY expectations, just a likely scenario for what their motivations may be. (I've had management and small business ownership experience, and we tend to think alike to mitigate problems.)

I'm suggesting an approach that a lawyer could take, applying common legal principles and case law as it applies to professionals.

As a professional myself (I'm in a medical profession), I'm acutely aware of the way the legal system operates: a large part of what I do on a daily basis is dictated by prior lawsuits. Just a fact of life. Don't blame me: I'm just stating the way it is in our litigious society.

My brother is a licensed plumbing contractor, and after many comparisons of our trades we've found he has a similar understanding of professional responsibilities, and does alot to mitigate liability exposure. Same with a friend of mine in another state who is a mechanic.

Professional responsibility is a real bear at times, and can keep you up at night, tossing and turning, but that's partly why professionals make the big $$$. It's ALL about expose to liability, and doing what you must to manage that risk.

Chris

 

I haven't missed any of your points. You are blaming a dealership and a mechanic for faulty work and you have absolutely no proof. The only eveidence you have in this scenario is that a plug blew 4 months after being installed. You have made judgements without any real evidence. If you know the legal field as well as you say, then your very limited, if any proof, wouldn't get you very far in court. You would have to come up with a lot stronger case than what you have. If the plug had blown within a week or two of installation, you might have a little better arguement. Quit blaming the dealer for a problem "you" have attributed to a design flaw by Ford. The dealership stepped forward and has offered some assistance, but I doubt it's because they felt any guilt. I have a dad who spent 25 years in a dealership and the last 10 years of his career being an independent shop owner, so I have some on hands experience as what to expect out of a mechanic.

Like I said in a previous post, you are quick to point the finger at the mechanic for failing to do the job properly, but yet I have never heard you criticize an individual who has changed their own plugs and then had one blow.

 

If the plugs were over-torqued when the dealer changed them was the torque verified on any of the other spark plugs?