Where does it state, and when has a warranty EVER been voided when using a different weight???? All it states in the manual is that this is RECOMMENDED and that ALL oils with API certification will give your engine more than enough protection. It only mentions that oil additives could cause damage and may not be covered under warranty.

My .02

Tony

 

For what's its worth I have always thougth synthetics were a waste of money until now. Last month I decided to try synthetics due to some slight engine knocking during morning startups. This is only very slight and can only be heard in a enclosed area like my garage. Since I made the change 3 weeks ago I have not even heard the slightest of noises during start up. Infact it seems to idile more smoothly than before. The other thing I am noticing is that the oil is not turing black like the non-synthetic oil has done at around 2,000 miles. I must say that at this point I will continue to use this oil based on my results.

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2001 Lariat Supercrew, 5.4, 3.55.

 

Slicker, Huh


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Alrolle-Do you know the history of syn's???

The reson they devloped syn's was in the 40's when invent of the turbine engine- the engine would jellify and burn out dino oils
so they had to have an oil that would stand up to and 'suvive' the turbine's heat and abuse...

Then in the 50's up in the artic we needed an oil that would 'flow' at -80 degrees F
Guess what? here comes syn again...they would flow at temps when dino was frozen solid....

Now in todays automotive application,,Is it needed is it required--NO...

However- I live in Texas where last year it was 113 F and with the underhood temps wA/C it had to have been 160-180 F...Do I need Syn here--probably not...

The reason I use it is..performance and friction reduction...Less friction=cooler temps, longer life, less wear, engine longevity, and increased change intervals..

Also I have been running Mobil 1 syn's since 70's and have never had any! major break down since then...

If engines go to 200K on dino, imagine how long it would have went on syn...

You use syns so you must some what believe or you are wasting your money...

I am sold and will reconmend them to anyone..I understand the history, the benefits and the difference in the performance of the two...


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2000 F250 PSD Auto 19+mpg PIII propane exhaust Ramair ThermoWrapped
2001 SuperCrew 4.6 auto 19+mpg K&N
1969 Mach1 351C 4spd 3.50 LS Autocrosser

 

You demonstrate my point. You provide no referenced documentation where it has been shown that synthetic actually increases engine life. Also, I don't drive a turbine and I've never been at -80 deg.

I tore down a 1970 something Datsun 510 at 100,000 miles. I took the parts to a rebuild shop and had everthing mic'ed. Absolutely no wear. Everything was within new engine specs. I used Castrol dino oil and changed it every 3000 miles. That car probably went another 150,000 with the second owner. No sythetic ever. I did replace bearings and rings since I had it apart.

Keep the faith. I prefer documented statistically significant evidence than product history or folklore. I've never seen any that shows a benefit (to the consumer) of synthetic oil except in atypical, extreme conditions. Neither has Consumer Reports. Their taxi cab fleet tests showed no difference between dino and synthetic.

I know, Cosumer Reports doesn't know anything. I trust them because they do statistically significant testing. They document the test proceedure and publish the results for all to see and question. That sure beats all the folklore and opinions presented as facts on this site.

Unfortunately, the Consumer Reports tests went only 60,000 miles. They should have run 200,000. However, they did have a lot of vehicles so you would think that there would have been at least a hint of the superioity of synthetics in the data. There was none.

Al

 

This 5w20 is really funny.

Anyone remember when the 5w30 came out?? Folks were freaking out. The insisted they had to use 10w40.

Since 1986 all Fords in all climates are to use 5w30. Down here in El Paso getting folks to use 5w30 of 10w30 is like pullin teeth.

What do you think is going to happen with the 5w20 they are still using 10w30 and some are using even higher weights than that.


It will be years before folks become comfortable with using the 5w20. Heck next will probably be 0w20!

Amsoil and Mobil already have a 0w30. I can't see why a 0w20 would not be too hard to come up with. Though I doubt many non-synthetics could meet that spec.

Seems they are already having a hard time with the 5w20. Pennzoil is having to blend some higher basestocks to meet the spec.



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I've observed the same as MSPARKS on how people react to the evolution of oil viscosity. It's almost as emotional an issue as dino vs synthetic. When I started driving some 47 years ago, most were using fixed weight oil or 10W40 and 15W50. There has been a slow, but constant evolution to lower viscosity. I think that the 5W20 is just the logical result of that evolution. 0W20 is probably the next step.

Possibly it's taken this long because of technology limitations (like the 0W20 speculation). If true, then a synthetic 5W20 might actually meet the 5W20 spec better than the dyno oil if the 5W20 requirement is actually pushing dyno capability/technology.

What brings me to so speculate, and I am speculating big time, is the viscosity tests Consumer Reports ran about 12 years ago. They measured the viscosity of unused oil for about 8 oils. Only Castrol dino and Mobil-1 met the higher numer. The rest were 5 or 10 less than rated. That is, instead of 10W30, it would be 10W25. Yet they were all API certified.

Al

 

The first number is the base weight of the oil. This is the same for both 5W-20 and 5W-30. This is the viscosity defined by the SAE at 0 degrees Celsius. The 20 and 30 are the modified viscosities when hot. Basically the 5W-20 would not be thinner than a 20W would at high temps. The difference between 5W-20 and 5W-30 is very small. I would be more concerned with using a 0W-30 than a 5W-20. I will probably switch to synthetic when the Free 3000 mile changes the dealer provides expires.

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01 Black XLT 4x2 Screw Gen I, 5.4, Moonroof, 3.55LS, Cloth Captains, Slider, Extender, ClassIII towing, 6 Disc etc.
Mods planned:
Gibson Single Sweptside, AirRaid, Superchip, Line-X bed liner, Fog/driving lights, Tint, Speed grill.

 

Some Nascar teams working with Phillips 66 are experimenting with specially blended mineral based oils for certain types of tracks where the heat generated in the valve spring area has caused some durability. This $15+ per liter 15w40 oil is not generally available to the public, but it can be purchased. I'll be testing it in a heavily modified TTR125 this summer, and if I find out anything noteworthy I'll pass it along. Keeping an open mind and following the advances in the petroleum industry seems like the best approach in the end.

One of the more recent SAE papers on the subject of oil and race engines is:
2000-01-3553 Oil Development for Nascar Racing
authored by
Douglas T. Jayne and Gail A. Evans - The Lubrizol Corp.
Steven G. Wilson - Richard Childress Racing Enterprises
Arnold L. Shugarman - 76 Lubricants Co.
Tim Wusz - TOSCO Marketing Co.

The summary section is reproduced below

CONCLUSIONS
· RCR developed a dynamometer test that correlates
ring welding, wrist pin bore wear, and valve train
wear with Winston Cup Racing performance.
· Low detergent packages increase the effectiveness
of antiwear film formation which minimizes
microwelding. Calcium detergents performed better
than magnesium detergents which performed better
than sodium detergents in this study.
· The particular molybdenum compound chosen as a
top treatment for friction modification did not improve
valve train wear.


.SYNTHETIC OILS GENERALLY PERFORM BETTER THAN MINERAL OILS WITH SIMILAR ADDITIVE PACKAGES.

.A 20W-50 MINERAL OIL SHOWED EQUIVALENT PERFORMANCE TO A 10W-30 SYNTHETIC FORMULATED WITH SIMILAR ADDITIVE CHEMISTRY.


It's an interesting read for those who are looking for additional info on the subject.

MotoTech
June 1999

by Rich Rohrich

The Great Oil Debate

Defending Mobil 1
Like most riders I occasionally spend time waiting at the parts counter at my local dealer. I never really mind though because I invariably gain some valuable insight into the misinformation that is regularly dispensed by well meaning but technically inept counter guys. With the current crop of high powered Sportbikes and four stroke dirt bikes taking up most of the floor space, the questions about oil routinely come up. It's all to common to hear a customer ask if it's OK to use a quality automotive oil like Mobil 1 15W50 at $3.00/quart rather than a motorcycle specific oil at $6.00 to $10.00 per quart. Almost as if they were programmed, the counter guy responds with something like "The current SJ rated car oils, including Mobil 1 will lead to motor damage and clutch slippage." The newgroups regularly contain similar questions, with answers ranging from it's OK, to insipid responses like "don't do it, automotive oil will decompose in your tranny". Well meaning maybe, but dumb as dirt.
The fact is I'm no expert on engine oils, but over the years I have had the opportunity to do a lot of analytically sound testing with Mobil 1 and some of the other high quality mineral based automotive oils. Based on my own testing and the cumulative experience of others and massive amounts of peer reviewed unbiased research I am of the opinion that it's a gross misconception to assume that using an SJ rated automotive oil will lead to damage in an engine whether it's automotive, or motorcycle.

There are enough instances of motorcycle manufacturers specifying automotive oil to dispel the notion that all auto oils cause clutch slipping. The fact is Mobil 1 15w50 SJ rated automotive oil doesn't contain any of the Energy Conserving friction modifiers (see Mobil product data sheet A-18 for the specific facts)that are claimed to cause clutch slipping in wet clutch applications. Research has shown that clutch slippage in wet clutch motorcycles is most often caused by varnish buildup on the clutch plates, as well as the normal deposits that come from long term use. Varnish is usually a byproduct of the breakdown of lower grade oils.

SJ rated automotive oils
One of the other popular myths surrounding SJ rated oils is the lower Zinc content will cause the engine to self destruct. While it is a fact that SJ rated oils have limitations on the Zinc content in an attempt to prolong the life of catalytic converter equipped vehicles, it's flawed logic to assume that an SH rated motorcycle oil will automatically have a higher zinc content. Some motorcycle specific oils have remarkably low zinc contents.
The available technical literature explains that zinc is added to oil help prevent scuffing in extreme (extended redline, or really high heat in air-cooled engines) situations where metal to metal contact may take place because the film strength of the oil wasn't up to the task. The literature also shows that more zinc won't provide more protection, it just extends the time to failure if the metal to metal contact is really severe. One of the advantages of a quality synthetic oil like Mobil 1 is the fact that it has a higher film strength to start with so there is less of a chance of being in a situation where you are really solely on zinc's ability to protect the cam lobes or piston skirt.

.

Facts from the API
[For some of the specific facts on zinc content check out the article "Synergistic effect on frictional characteristics under rolling-sliding conditions due to a combination of molybdenum dialkyldithiocarbamate and zinc dialkyldithiophosphate " in Tribology International, Vol: 30, Issue: 1, January 1997.]
Here's some additional information from the American Petroleum Institute's (API)

"Guide to the API Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System"

The consumer should refer to the owner or operator manual for specific vehicle and/or engine manufacturer's engine oil recommendations. By licensing an engine oil, API does not imply that oils with the registered Marks are appropriate for all vehicles or engines in the field. For gasoline engines, the highest performance category of oil includes the properties of each earlier performance category. This means that if the owners manual calls for an API SG or SH oil, an API SJ oil will provide full protection.

Some additional facts on the SJ rating directly from the API:

"Each gasoline engine category exceeds the performance properties of all the previous categories and can be used in place of the lower one. For example, an SJ oil can be used for any previous category".

My thoughts on synthetic automotive oils aren't based solely on following the available research. I started working with synthetic oils in about 1979 when I built my first air-cooled turbo charged dragbike. This bike saw massive clutch abuse and oil temps that cooked mineral oils, and cam bearings along with it. I started experimenting with Mobil Delvac diesel synthetic oil, in an effort to extend engine and clutch life. Clutch life on the bike was about the same but the engine didn't eat parts anymore. I actually got a chance to wear parts out for a change. Similar experiences with other projects I was involved in has brought me to the point that nearly every four-stroke race bike and street bike I've built since then has been run on Mobil 1 automotive oil once the engine was broken in.

The concerns about running the latest SJ versions of Mobil 1 in high torque high rpm engines like the Yamaha YZ400 appear to be equally unfounded. I've run Mobil 1 15w50 in my YZ400 since April 98 with excellent results. I'm a notorious clutch abuser (I still fan it like it's a 125), and haven't found the clutch to be a problem, in spite of rumors that the YZ has a weak clutch. From the reports I've gotten from other people running Mobil 1 SJ my experience seems to be the norm. I pulled the engine on the YZ apart after a full season of riding 2-3 times a week the piston and valvetrain wear was negligible .

So what conclusions can someone draw from the above?

Mobil 1 automotive SJ rated 15w50 is a high quality oil that will serve you well in most situations, and it's a real bargain compared to the majority of motorcycle specific oils. If you are looking for the absolute highest level of protection because you are road racing, drag racing, or just the nervous type look towards a synthetic oil specifically designed for racing with a zinc content higher than allowed by the SJ rating, and in general try to avoid oils with Energy Conserving friction modifiers.

Further Reading

For more facts on engine oils and the myriad of painfully detailed research that has been done on them I suggest reading:

API Publication 1509

API Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System

This document provides the technical backup for EOLCS.

Fourteenth Edition, December 1996, 122 pages.

Order Number F15094 / Price: $70.00

API Publication 1509C

A Guide to the API Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System

This document serves as a consumer's guide to the EOLCS program.

First Edition, September 1996, 16 pages.

Order Number F1509C / Price $2.00 (first two copies free)

API Publication 1551

Motor Oil Guide

Eighth Edition, September 1996, 60 pages.

This document provides an understanding of the important functions of today's engine oils and explains what the motorist should do to protect and prolong engine life.

Order Number F15518 / Price: $10.00



The above is information from DRN forums

Chris

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98 SC 4.6L stepside, Gibson headers, Gibson single exhaust, superchip, Intake mods, Piaa's, high end audio stuff.

[This message has been edited by cujet (edited 06-29-2001).]

 

alrolle:

Are you speaking with forked tongue?

Possibly it's taken this long because of technology limitations (like the 0W20 speculation). If true, then a synthetic 5W20 might actually meet the 5W20 spec better than the dyno oil if the 5W20 requirement is actually pushing dyno capability/technology

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1997 F150 reg cab, flareside
4.6 5spd 2wd 3.08
Steeda pulleys
Jacobs DIS
Accel coil packs
K&N FIPK
Airaid poweraid
MSD wires
Superchip
Dyna Glass cover
Center Line Cobra wheels
GoodYear 275/60/R17 tires on front, new 285/65/R17 on rear
Dark Toreador Red
Cordovan Interior
Alpine AM/FM/CD
Love My Truck
Next Mod: Electric fan

 

Per cujet's post. Seems to me that air cooled engines are a very logical place to use sythetics. They suffer very high temperature gradients across the engine and are very higly stressed machines in general.

In addition to my '84 BMW R80, I have always use synthetic in my air-cooled lawn mower. However, BMW motorcycles typically see very high milage with dino oil. At least the non-racing ones.

I do have an oil temperature sensor/gauge on the BMW. Never have seen a noticeable difference in oil temperature between dino and synthetic. That used to be the big claim for synthetics years ago. I do just normal road touring.

Al

 

Great information.

Note about the Calcium detergents. It is one of the highest priced additives in oil. Most of the cheaper oil makers either use non or very little and rely on heavy amounts of magnesium and sodium.

Fact is Better oils use better additives.

Case in point, an analysis of my Amsoil 10w40 motorcycle oil after 6700 miles.

Calcium 4316 ppm Magnesium 28 ppm, Sodium 6 ppm.

My analysis of Castrol syntec (5w50)in my F150 after 3000 miles is Calcium 1500, Magnesium 369 Sodium 6.

Also comparing the zinc phosphorus
Amsoil= Zn,1321 ppm; P,1237 ppm
Castrol syntec= Zn,1138 ppm; P, 767

I believe what the article say's is true. The ZDDP addtives are to protect during extreme use only. High heat and RPMs I have seen oils with over 25,000 miles without a change and the ZDDP is still really high. Only during load bearing metal to metal would this additve get used up. Then the time/quantity would be a factor and oils with higher amounts of ZDDP would outlast weaker oil.

As said above, Synthetics with their higher film strength would be able to go longer before the ZDDP would become a factor.

As as stated with a synthetic you can generally go down 1 oil viscosity grade when comparing to conventional and still get the same if not better protection.




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Here is an article about some of the additves that are found in oils. It is again about motorcycles and has some nice graphs to give an indication of some of the ZDDP additves and other Detergents:

http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html

 

I had a 1984 VW GTi, 1.8L in line 4. Built in Westmoreland, PA, engine came from Mexico. (Now replaced with my F-150 Scab sport) Had a stock VW original equipment oil temp guage on the console, read in degrees Celsius. The guage was red-lined at 150C, and the engine regularly would run right at 145 to 147C, kinda scary. On a trip to Vegas on I-15 in the summer, I would have to throttle down and kill the air to keep from going over the red-line.

At about 15,000 miles, I started using Mobil 1. The oil temp went down 3 to 5 degrees C. I know Consumer's taxi test said no difference dino-synthetic, but this was right there in front of me - 3-5C lower, made me feel better, some margin available. Had to be lower friction. Nothing else had changed.
Then, at 60,000, I put in Slick 50 of all things, and the oile temp went down another 3 to 5C! Car ran to 209,000 when I gave it away last month. Head was never off of it in 17 years. Valves were never adjusted (had mechanical lifters with adjustment disks). Passed the California Smog II (dynomometer) smog test with flying colors in 1999. Would it have done this with dino oil and no Slick 50? Who knows.

Just put in Mobil 1 5W-30 today in my new F-150 at 2300 miles. Service rep (Mel Clayton in Santa Barbara) said "I can tell you why Ford doesn't use synthetic oil and doesn't believe in it". I said, that's OK, if he didn't want to use the Mobil 1 I had brought with me he could use the Ford 5W-20 and filter. I mainly wanted him to take off the original filter for me. He said "you'll have to keep using the synthetic from now on". Don't know what sense that made. In any event, he put in the Mobil 1 5W-30 and the Mobil 1 filter with no further comment.

Don't think I'll try putting Slick 50 in the 5.4L, Ford specifically recommends against that type of additive (Slick 50 is teflon).

 

I have a 12 year old lawnmower with a 12hp Kawasaki engine used to mow 1 acre. I change the oil twice a year. I always used 5-30 dino oil. Over the past few years it had started to burn oil and the engine seems tired. This year all I had around was a quart of Mobil 1 5-30. I felt like a dope putting it in but I had already drained the old oil.
It ran like a new mower. Uses less gas and 1/2 way through the season it still hasn't burned any oil. The engine doesn't even "throttle up" when it hits heavy grass.
Things are going so well that next year I might even sharpen the blades.



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2001 Expedition 5.4L XLT
4WD + Towing Package
Edelbrock IAS
Superchip
Gibson SS Side Swept
Air Force One
Mobil 1