Mechanic man:
Good to hear your results with the 15W40. I use Kendal's 15W40 super D-3 in the summer months and Kendal's Gt-1 10W30 in the winter months, changing religiously at 2000 miles. I used this routine from day one on my 95 Ranger. It had 53,000 miles when I sold it, with no engine problems. I use it in the wife's Contour overhead cam V6, and at 40,000 miles, you can take the oil filler cap off, look down to the top of the head, and it looks brand new. No varnish, no coking, just a honey brown oil film. I am also using it in my F-150 (Gasp). Relax, you guys. Frankly, when I'm towing a trailer in stop and go traffic on the freeway at 95 degrees in July, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with a 5W30, period. Don't care what Ford says. They just want to meet mileage standards and sell you a new truck anyway. By the way, my father has managed a fleet of trucks for 25 years, and that's where I was clued in to 15W40. He routinely gets 250 to 300 thousand out of his route trucks, which run all day long, idling at every stop for several minutes.

Also (and I truly mean no disrespect here), while most mechanics are expert parts swappers, few know very much about the science behind the formulation of oils and thier long term durability or protection. They only see what happens when someone neglects their maintenance. Most of them are told what to use, or read the manual on what to use, and that's that.

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2000 XLT Black Sport, Flareside, 2WD, Ext. Cab, 5.4L Auto. Other factory options: 3.55 LS, Class III tow, 6-way Captains chairs w/CD changer, Remote entry , and Slider window.
Mods: Undercoat, window tint, headlight & tail light covers, removed "Sport" decals, upgraded Triton tailgate emblem, Linex spray-in bedliner, an ARE LSII lid, recessed Blazer reflectors below the bottom tailgate edge (Thanks Captain),and a Flowmaster cat-back exhaust kit.
Wish list: K&N FIPK, Belltech 3/4 drop, Belltech or Helwig sway bars, and a front bumper cover with lights.
Check out more pics at: http://home.columbus.rr.com/selva1/f150.html


[This message has been edited by selva1 (edited 03-22-2000).]

 

Selva1,
Why would you worry about towing in stop and go traffic with 5w30, but not 10w30. these are multi grade oils. they perform like cold 5 or 10 weight oil when cold, but like hot 30 weight when hot. This means once the engine is up to opperating temperature, they are the same viscosity. the 5w30 is just thinner at start up so that it can be pumped up to the cam and heads faster.

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BigBunnell

98 F150 4X4 XLT flareside V6 5sp K&N Flowmaster and some other goodies

 

Under those conditions, I said I would be using the 15W40, not the 10W30. I use the 10W30 only in the colder months.

To all who worry about high heat, high stress conditions, do this simple little experiment: Get two small identical metal cups. In one cup, add a small amount of your favorite oil. In the other, add an equal amount of some other oil that you are considering. Put both on an outdoor grill and fire it up. Watch closely to see which one breaks down first. There's no proof like the proof you discover yourself...........

 

I think I am going to have to disagree with most of what I am hearing!!!

1. YES these engines are, in fact, machined to much tighter tolerances than previous years. The 5.4 is one of the most sophisticated engines built! Moreover, it rated in the top 10 in the world. Yes they tell us to use 5-30 because of tolerances and emmissions! 10-30 would even be fine! But anything above that would not do the engine ANY good if your looking to KEEP the vehicle till its doom! Which Mechanic Man is obviously NOT!

2. Mechanic Man has failed to tell us how these engines are used! Are they running ALL THE TIME or do they get started 20 times a day? THow many miles do they see at 6 years? This would be a HUGE factor in the amount of wear no matter what viscosity. But I'll bet the 15-40 wears a whole lot more at start-up!! Sounds like switching to a good synthetic and prolonging his changing might save him money!

3. You think that the dealership is gonna screw with this guy for using 15-40 YOUR FREAKING CRAZY!!!!!!! This guy is buying Fords BY THE BOAT LOAD! They could care less if he uses Olive oil!

From what I've read here, this sounds VERY similar to the claims made by Consumer Reports on the engines from the New York cabs who only used conventional oils. That was the worst peice of reporting I've seen! They never bothered to look at ALL the possibilities as ANY Scientist or Engineer would OR ANYBODY WITH COMMON SENSE!!!

Too many variables and NOT ENOUGH INFO!

WOULD YOU BUY A TRUCK FROM THIS GUY AFTER 6 YEARS OF RUNNING 15-40 THROUGH ALL TEMPERATURES AND WHO KNOWS WHAT CONDITIONS?

I think not which, by common sense, tells us that we are ALL BLOWING SMOKE HERE!

Has Mechanic Man torn any engines down and actually used a Micrometer to measure the difference in tolerances on any internal engine parts? 15-40 will make those main bearings look great but what about all the other parts?

Wishful thinking but NO PROOF FOR ME!

If you paln to keep a car/truck FOR LIFE, which few of us do, then you want to use a good synthetic. If you get rid of them every 4-6 years or sooner, who cares what kind of oil you use! If your leasing a car you are probably NEVER going to use it in the 60,000 mile or above range! So change it when the owners manual says to and use the CHEAPEST CONVENTIONAL YOU CAN GET!!!!!!!!!!

Mechanic Man the ONLY reason I could see you changing what your doing is COST! Longevity doesn't mean anything to you, so run em with the cheapest oil you can buy in bulk!

[This message has been edited by Rand (edited 03-23-2000).]

 

Oil debates like this are similar to the chicken and the egg debate. People will go round and round with their own beliefs and rarely see or adopt other guys point of view. I am merely sharing my experience. Take it for what you will.

I will comment on the start-up issue though. You are correct that the 15W40 will not flow as quickly on start up, but it does leave more oil film on critical parts that have to sit for a period of time. The second or two head start that the thinner oil takes to get to dryer parts may not be any more beneficial than the heavier oil getting to parts that are better primed.

One more thing. One of the route trucks I mentioned before was in an accident at about 150,000 miles. The engine was torn down to see if it could be salvaged. As it turns out, the cylinders walls didn't even need honed. With minimal work, it was reinstalled in another truck. It's real world first hand experiences like this, not hearsay or rumor that help me decide what's best for my vehicle. I just thought others may benefit from it..........

 

Rand, We are a Cable TV company. One of the largest in the country. We use our trucks hard. Stop and go city driving with heavy loads in weather rangeing from 103 degrees in the summer to 18 degrees in the winter. Our 7.3s and 6.8s never shut off because when they are not driving the motor is running the PTO. Yes our 4.2s, 4.6s, and 5.4s are running all the time and yes they do get started 20 times or more a day. As a fleet we drive over 2 million total miles a year. In 6 years most of the vehicles have 85,000 to 140,000 miles on them depending on what department they are in. Longevity is there. I have many employees and contractors that purchase the vehicles from the company when we retire them. They have had no major engine problems . I tell them to continue to use 15-40. Rand the point is I have not had to tear down motors to rebuild them and mic parts. I would think if I was having and excessive wear problem because of the oil viscosity I would have more than 5 engine failures in 16 years. Why do I keep reading about people having piston slap problems on this board with 4.6s and 5.4s and we are not having this problem. Could it be that Ford is recommending to thin of a oil to meet their government gas mileage requirements. I will sacrifice gas mileage for engine wear and tear. Msparks you are the oil expert. Does oil get thinner when it is cold and thicker when it is hot ? Or is it a base viscosity with an additive package that lubricates at set standard at different temps to meet SAE requirements ?

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FORD RULES !!!


[This message has been edited by Mechanic Man (edited 03-23-2000).]

 

Where is the Ford's reliabilty test data to support using 5W-30. Is it "just because"?

 

Mechanic Man brings up some good points.

 

Hello Mechanic Man, The vast majority of the people who have engine knocking noises in their 5.4's are people who live in the northern states. Currently, there are 6,000 people who are waiting to get their engines replaced in the New York/New Jersey area. I take it that the temperatures at night where you live are not as cold as in my area. That explains why you have not heard any knocking noises but, the engines still have problems.

 

"Msparks
you are the oil expert. Does oil get thinner when it is cold and thicker when it is hot
? Or is it a base viscosity with an additive package that lubricates at set standard
at different temps to meet SAE requirements ?"

All oil get thinner when it is hot. but to what degree this happens is the protection that you recieve.

A 10w30 and 5w30 are essentially the same when hot. Though the 10w has a higher resistance to heat and volitility(this is when the oil oxidates and cooks off)

So under hard use the 15w40 would offer better protection than a 10w30. The 15w40 oil would get less thicker with use due this resistance.

Now with synthetics they are naturally resistant to volitility and even the 5w30 would hold its viscosity over the duration of its life, where as a conventional oil that say has 20% volitility would be really thick after 5,000 miles, and would offer less protection. That is why you have to change conventional more often.

Mechanic Man, I think your guy are doing fine, since you really on start a cold engine once a day, but overall you are saving wear because of the higher protection during the day.

Remember once all -40 weight oils get hot, they are essentially the same. and a -30 and -40 weight oil are pretty close when used in warm engine.

Now most folks would be doing harm to their engines by using the 15w40 since they esentially cold start their engines 4,5,6 times a day. Think about it your drive 15 min to work. sit all day, then start a cold engine, then drive to the store 5 min away engine is still cold then you stop some where else.

I wouldn't change to a lighter weight oil unless you do change to synthetic, I don't think that conventional 5w30 would hold up like the 15w40 stuff.

Also remember that you are using a diesel rated oil, which is okay for both gas and diesel's, you actually get better acid protection for the gas than normally found in SJ rated oils. And that also helps with wear control.

I hope that I kinda made sense here. If not, try to ask a specific question and I will dig up a specific answer.



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Lube-Direct


New Lubrication Forums

 

Msparks,Your knowledge of oil is impressive.Your lubrication forum is also impressive. Thank you . You answered my question perfectly.Well Rand it looks like the only smoke blowing here is coming out your tail pipe.Just an FYI Rand when I take our vehicles to the Ford dealer for warranty work and the vehicle is due for an oil change. I have the Ford dealer put 15-40 in our motors. The dealer is more concerned about the API rating on the oil then if the viscosity is 5-30 or 15-40. Also one more thing,could you explain these tighter tolerances you are talking about.

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FORD RULES !!!

 

Still nothing proved to me. Those engines are STAYING HOT ALL THE TIME thats the MAIN difference! MSPARKS said what I thought I already said... You are NOT cold starting those things all the time like everyone else, thats the main difference. Sure you start them 20 times a day. BUT the cable guy turned his engine off, went to install or fix something and came out within 20 -45 minutes on average (just guestimating here).... Engine is still very warm! Plenty of oil coverage!

For what your doing thats fine. The only thing I would change is a more cost effective approach if possible? Maybe this 15-40 is the cheaper oil? Maybe you could run synthetics and change them once a year? Who knows....

As for the "tighter tolerances" I don't feel I need to do research to explain the fact that since humans began building the internal combustion engine our technology and knowledge of physics, engineering, thermodynamics, chemistry, blah blah blah.... Has INCREASED EXPONENTIALLY!!!!!!!
So if you believe they are building engines today like they were in the 40's, 50's, or even up to the late 80's your crazy!

How do you think they are able to squeez so much Horsepower out of these engines while all along INCREASING GAS MILEAGE, even with these emmissions restrictions????

Its called building a better engine! That means making the specifications of the tolerances between moving parts MORE ACCURATE....

What does buiding a "balanced" engine mean?

Simply put, tolerances mean less "play" between moving parts. If you have less of an area to squeez oil into, you need oil that is thin enough to get to all the parts.

I am NOT saying that what you are doing is wrong, just don't give other people the idea that because it works for you it will work for them! Most people use their cars/trucks VERY differently.....

You would be stupid to change the way you've been doing business for 16 years. Its worked for you!

BTW: I this is not an angry posting. I just enjoy a good arguement! If you dont put your ***** on the table, no one learns anything! I am the type that ALWAYS questions everything!




[This message has been edited by Rand (edited 03-24-2000).]

 

Mechanic Man,

Now don't go to your dealer for warranty work and tell him that I said it was fine to use 15w40. haha.

It's not unheard of for Ford Motor Company to deny work because you were using the wrong oil. This is really the only place you might run into trouble. But it seem that you have a good track record going now. So i wouldn't worry too much about that.

What Rand is saying is true though. I belive that you could cut costs by switching to synthetics. I could show you study's and trails, and other companies that have done it and saved 100's of thousands of buck's in fuel milage, time, and oil costs. Depending on the amount of Vehicle and road miles per year!



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Lube-Direct


New Lubrication Forums

 

Usually, a 10w40 starts out with a 'base' stock of 10w and viscosity improvers are added to keep the oil as 'thick' as a 40w at operating temps.

A 10w30 starts out with a 'base' stock of 10w and viscosity improvers are added to keep the oil as 'thick' as a 30w at operating temps.

A 5w30 starts out with a 'base' stock of 5w and viscosity improvers are added to keep the oil as 'thick' as a 30w at operating temps.

(notice the pattern here)

So...

...do you Really want to be using an oil with a base stock of 0w or 5w in your engine -- when your 'baby' is depending upon the additive package holding up as designed (hoped)?

When a multiple viscosity (xxWyy) of any type breaks down under heat -- like at the piston ring -- it reverts to it's 'base' stock -- be it 15w or 10w or 5w or 0w.

Engines that use those light base-stock multi-vis oils keep a VERY thin film of oil at the piston wall (wiped by the rings) -- and therefore, those engines don't 'use oil'.

Try that with a straight 30W oil (like is recommended in some diesel engines), and you'll find that the engine 'uses oil' -- and when you use a multiple-vis (like 15w40) oil, it doesn't 'use oil'.

The 30W oil actually keeps a thicker film of oil on the cylinder wall -- which is then burned during the combustion cycle -- and therefore the engine complaint is that it 'uses oil' -- when, in fact, the engine cylinder walls and rings are better protected than with the thin-base-stock oils.

This is all a moot point for gasoline engines, since they spend most of their life under the easiest of duty -- coasting along the highway or byway -- and the rings and cylinder honing (aka the 'close tolerances') are very predictable (aka 'good') -- and the oils of today are so darn good that it's a wash.

The only real advantage of synthetic oils is in gearboxes -- where they have the opportunity to run for zillions of miles with little 'shear' breakdown of the additives -- and no added contaminants.

Let me repeat: No Added Contaminants -- this is the key ingredient for oil breakdown.

Today's engines run at predictable temperatures -- and today's oils (petroleum based) are more than adequate for those temperatures. A synthetic oil is nothing but a more predictable oil -- meaning that by 'synthetically', or 'created by man' oil -- you get a more 'predictable' oil than you can get from the earth -- meaning, you just get a 'perfect' petroleum oil instead of a 'by chance of nature' petroleum.

Your water-cooled engines do not get hot enough to tax the high temperature qualities of today's top petroleum oils -- and in many cases, the same basic additive packages are added to synthetic as to petroleum oils for engine use.

The combustion process adds acids to the oils that attack the bronze/aluminum/'metal' in the engines -- and, in time, the additive packages 'use up' their additives that are placed in the oils to combat a predicted amount of contaminants.

You can actually 'over-filter' your engine oils -- and filter out the additive packages -- Hmmm. Didn't think of that did you?

In gearboxes, where the oils stay clean for years and years, the 'perfect' synthetic lubricants (with the appropriate additive packages for the type of service) will last and last -- like the Eveready Bunny.

Not so with Engines -- Contaminants kill even the best additives.

The "oil" won't die, but the oil's tolerance for contaminants, acids, etc. will.

So what's the point?

The point is, that as long as you can afford synthetics, why not use them.

Are they Necessary? Not in a water-cooled engine (however, in your Harley -- that's a great case for synthetics in engines).

Are you wasting your money? If you change at 3000 miles -- yes.

If you change at 10,000 miles -- can you guarantee that your engine has been warm enough to 'burn off' the condensation of winter driving? Probably not.

Which is worse, Water in the oil, or spending more for oil (cuz you change it more often)? You choose.

Use synthetics in your gearboxes -- heck yes.

In your engines? If money is no object -- and it makes you feel better.

Use a 15W40 oil? Why not -- when it breaks down, it 'reverts' to the 15w -- and would you rather have a 15w or a 5w during your peak hour of need?

Proving that an engine oil 'caused' an engine failure is like proving that you had a dream. Nobody ever saw a dream -- and, unless you use a non-detergent oil in your engine -- and your cam lobes are all wiped off due to no scuff-resistance, no oil company anywhere is going to admit that their oil 'caused' an engine failure.

Ok, boys and girls -- fight over this post for a while.




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XLT SC SB 5.4 4x4 3.73 LS

 

Y2K 7700 4X4:
Excellent post! Thanks for the additional insight and elaboration of my earlier posts. You said more than I ever could. It is information like this that keeps me addicted to these boards. What is your background, as I am truly impressed. For all those who wanted more detailed information, there it is. Hopefully, this may inspire many to at least be open minded enough to consider other options for best protecting their trucks.



[This message has been edited by selva1 (edited 03-24-2000).]