Sounds like you know your stuff Neal! BON is a Ford hate site. Anything they post is going to be biased. They always tell the negative stuff and conveniently forget the positives.

 

Neal: You made me proud. I haven't heard of anyone saying anything good about the 305. Dealer told me one time that the 4-barrel 350 made the same hp as the Efi'd 305. Oh well!

 

HI!... STRANGERANGER : I'm not disagreeing with you because you are intitaled to your opinion.8-) But I have many friends that work for FORDS in the ESSEX engine plant and in the dyno rooms. They have given me several skimatics and plans to the 5.4 and 4.6 TRITON including camshaft specs and diagrams. I even have a brand new piston from a 5.4. My friend that works in the dyno room told me that the bottom end of the 5.4 is just as strong as the old 351-w and that without any modifications will handle up too 500h.p but thats it's limit stock. It would be able to handle more if you replaced the stock "POWDER FORGED" rods with a quality forged rod like in the LIGHTNING"s 5.4. Also if you wanted to rev it higher than 6500rpm you would have to use a beefier piston pin. They were finding that when reved past 6500rpm that excesive wear ocurred on the pin. I have seen many 5.4 and 4.6 TRITON engines apart and am very impressed with the engineering that went into them. The only item that I was not impressed with in the TRITON line up was the fact of the extremely long timing chain. I think FORD could of done better in this department. Mabey a gear drive kind of set up would be better in my opinion. I also think that because of the aluminum heads that FORDS should use either a "O" ringed block or "O" ringed heads like the TRICK FLOW TWISTED WEDGE heads. I say this because I just brought my truck into the dealer today for a small oil leak and found out that the head gasket is blown. They told me that it was going to take about 18 hours of labour to replace the head gasket. Thank god it's under warrenty because they told me that with the parts and labour it would be close to $22OO(CAN) if I had to pay for it. Too bad both head gaskets wer'nt blown, because then I would have an excuse to put a set of SEAN HYLAND performance cams in it. I can dream! 8-) 8-)

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NEAL [ the horsepower freak ] NEWMAN
'99' F-150 XLT SPORT, oxford white, reg cab shortbox stepside,5.4, auto, 4.10L.S, captain's chairs, bedliner, GTS carbon fiber headlight covers, **** CEPECK clear halogen driving lights, GTS slotted tailight covers (painted oxford white), FORD locking lug nuts, tinted windows,true duel exhaust with 2.5 inch mandrel bent pipes and FLOWMASTER 3 chamber mufflers with 3' tailpipes exiting before the rear wheel like the LIGHTNING, HELLWIG rear stabalizer bar, AUTOMETER guage pod and tranny temp guage, custom fabricated air intake trac and huge K/N filter, TPS mod, BELLTECH 2-inch rear drop, custom programed SUPERCHIP.

FUTURE MODS : JBA headers, power pulleys, twin electric fans, traction bars, BAUMANN ENGINEERING shift kit, and a KENNE BELL BLOWZILLA supercharger.
ESTIMATED H.P TO DATE : 310H.P / 405ft/lbs of torque.

 

HI!... PASTMASTER : The only 305 that I have seen that impressed me was the one that came in the "86" style MONTI CARLO. They were quick for what they were.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- HI!... ML : I don't visit BON anymore because I found that only half of what they say is true and they don't research their facts too good. But that just my opinion. Now I've started a flame I bet!!!!8-)

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NEAL [ the horsepower freak ] NEWMAN
'99' F-150 XLT SPORT, oxford white, reg cab shortbox stepside,5.4, auto, 4.10L.S, captain's chairs, bedliner, GTS carbon fiber headlight covers, **** CEPECK clear halogen driving lights, GTS slotted tailight covers (painted oxford white), FORD locking lug nuts, tinted windows,true duel exhaust with 2.5 inch mandrel bent pipes and FLOWMASTER 3 chamber mufflers with 3' tailpipes exiting before the rear wheel like the LIGHTNING, HELLWIG rear stabalizer bar, AUTOMETER guage pod and tranny temp guage, custom fabricated air intake trac and huge K/N filter, TPS mod, BELLTECH 2-inch rear drop, custom programed SUPERCHIP.

FUTURE MODS : JBA headers, power pulleys, twin electric fans, traction bars, BAUMANN ENGINEERING shift kit, and a KENNE BELL BLOWZILLA supercharger.
ESTIMATED H.P TO DATE : 310H.P / 405ft/lbs of torque.

 

Shovie engines wouldn't be so bad if you could keep them from leaking all the time. I know from personal experience.

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'97 XLT Reg. Cab, 4.2V6, 5spd, Superchipped, K&N Air Filter, Lund Deflector, Dash Mat, MagnaFlow Muffler, Hellwig Rear Sway Bar, Edelbrock Shocks, Duraliner, Extang Saber Tonneau, Bell-Tech 2" Rear Drop, Amer. Rac. Atlas Wheels Clad in 275/60/17 Eagle GTII. Likes straightaways, loves twisties.

 

Neal: I agree with you, my uncle has a 88 MC SS, thats still a beast, but I figured it is fast becuase of the weight factor, fiberglass sides

Whats your opinion on the new Gm engines?

 

Neal,

About the 302 and 351, Now I will admit that I'm going to quote this from memory so it might be subject to scrutiny.

Let's see, 1967.. GM produced the first 302 ci. small block in order to compete in the scca raceing series,(standard engine in 67-69 Z28) 4inch bore and 3inch stroke, advertised from the factory at 290 hp but actually dyno'd closer to 390 hp, yeah, they lied about it for several reasons. OH LOOK, Ford comes out with their own 302 ci about a year later, AND GUESS WHAT! 4 inch bore and 3 inch stroke!! HUMM!

Then in 1968...I think?... GM comes out with the 350 ci small block, 4inch bore and 3.48 inch stoke. HEY LOOK AGAIN! Ford comes out about a year later with the 351 ci, 4 inch bore and 3.5 inch stroke, only a mere .020 difference in stroke over GM's 350. HUMM?

Is it remotely concievable that Ford directly copied GM?

GM's 302 kicked serious @ss on the track, right out of the box, no mods. It made it's peak HP at between 6500 and 6800 rpm, the only thing Fords 302 did at 6800 rpm (If my memory serves me right) was throw rods right out the side of the crank case.

I will have to admit tho, the Ford 302 and 351W where probably the best race motors that Ford ever produced, but you'll never convince me tho'it was solely their own concept.

[This message has been edited by hotratz (edited 12-02-1999).]

 

Neal
The 5.4 is not even in the same league as the 351 let alone the 5.0 and 5.7
In your post you said that small bearing surfaces are used by many racers. Small bearing surfaces equals less friction therefore less heat AT HIGH RPM. At low rpm under load a truck motor needs bearing sufaces and a tough bttom end. The 5.4 lacks these qualities. The 5.4 shares the same bottom end as the 4.6 While this is fine for the 4.6, it doesn't cut it in the 5.4 for the intended heavier duty use. For someone like yourself that enjoys going fast in his truck, the 5.4 does well,though IMO does lack in upper end power considering its an OHC design.
As for the 5.3 having a 4000 rpm torque peak, you shouldn't be blind sighted by that number. Like the Triton, the Vortec also produces>90% of its torque at around 2000 rpm. The fact that a long , wide torque band is better than a short peaky one is undeniable.While GMtook some LS1 technology to develop the new Vortec, this is not a bad thing. GM smalllock V8's are indeed world class motrors that even in stock form are well suited for truck use!
It's very nice you have a shiny new piston from a 5.4 and all but the fact remains itis a compimised design, plain and simple.
If Gm could build their trucks as well as they build their engines, I think you would see GM out sell Ford.



I used to have an 86 Monte 305 180 hp it was pretty quick, but sloer than a current front druve Buick!

 

HI... HOTRATZ : The 302 concept was derived from the 289 which was invented in 1963-68. Not the CHEVY version of the 302. I agree with you that CHEVY's 302 "ZAPPER" was a great engine. It's too bad that they did'nt make it a lot longer. Back in the style of racing you mentioned it was a 302 BOSS that was used 90% of the time. The regular 302's were blowing rods because FORD drivers were reving them to 8000rpm.NO flame intended just like to talk about motors and their specs8-)

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NEAL [ the horsepower freak ] NEWMAN
'99' F-150 XLT SPORT, oxford white, reg cab shortbox stepside,5.4, auto, 4.10L.S, captain's chairs, bedliner, GTS carbon fiber headlight covers, **** CEPECK clear halogen driving lights, GTS slotted tailight covers (painted oxford white), FORD locking lug nuts, tinted windows,true duel exhaust with 2.5 inch mandrel bent pipes and FLOWMASTER 3 chamber mufflers with 3' tailpipes exiting before the rear wheel like the LIGHTNING, HELLWIG rear stabalizer bar, AUTOMETER guage pod and tranny temp guage, custom fabricated air intake trac and huge K/N filter, TPS mod, BELLTECH 2-inch rear drop, custom programed SUPERCHIP.

FUTURE MODS : JBA headers, power pulleys, twin electric fans, traction bars, BAUMANN ENGINEERING shift kit, and a KENNE BELL BLOWZILLA supercharger.
ESTIMATED H.P TO DATE : 310H.P / 405ft/lbs of torque.

 

HI!... RHUEPINDER BINDERISHNY : You said that the 5.4 does'nt have a strong bottom end. Well since it has a 6 bolt main, forged crank, forged rods and thicker main caps than a 351-w, I would sure like to know what you think is a strong bottom end. By the way the 5.4 has a main journal size of 2.6 which is almost the same as 2.7 used in the 351-c (a great truck engine also)390,427 and 428. Sure the 351-w has a 3.0 inch main journal size but 0.3 is not much of a difference in my opinion. For the 5.4 not having much of a top end, thats an easy one. It's a truck not a sports car. Ford has already proven that the modular engine can rev. 4.6 4-valve in the MUSTANG revs to 7000rpm and will rev higher if you remove the alternator. (ALT blows up at 7200rpm). Just wait another year or so when FORD puts the 5.4 in the MUSTANG and then you will see a motor holds a lot of power. I agree with you that CHEVY makes great engines also but in my opinion Fords are better. No flames intended!8-)

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NEAL [ the horsepower freak ] NEWMAN
'99' F-150 XLT SPORT, oxford white, reg cab shortbox stepside,5.4, auto, 4.10L.S, captain's chairs, bedliner, GTS carbon fiber headlight covers, **** CEPECK clear halogen driving lights, GTS slotted tailight covers (painted oxford white), FORD locking lug nuts, tinted windows,true duel exhaust with 2.5 inch mandrel bent pipes and FLOWMASTER 3 chamber mufflers with 3' tailpipes exiting before the rear wheel like the LIGHTNING, HELLWIG rear stabalizer bar, AUTOMETER guage pod and tranny temp guage, custom fabricated air intake trac and huge K/N filter, TPS mod, BELLTECH 2-inch rear drop, custom programed SUPERCHIP.

FUTURE MODS : JBA headers, power pulleys, twin electric fans, traction bars, BAUMANN ENGINEERING shift kit, and a KENNE BELL BLOWZILLA supercharger.
ESTIMATED H.P TO DATE : 310H.P / 405ft/lbs of torque.

 

Neal, My apologies, I forgot to mention the 289 which also was a very good platform to build a race engine on, It's still being used today. I think I recall it also to be a 4 inch bore? I forget the stroke, but oviously less than 3inches (my memory is "she-it" these days) But didn't Chev. also have a 4 inch bore machine in 63 as the 327 ci? So maybe the issue is really how the 3 inch stroke came onto the scene. Chev was first to use it as I recall and I certainly won't blame Ford for just going with it if that's really what happened. Why re-invent the wheel if we know it already works?
We could say too that the 289 was concieved from Chev 265 ci or that the 265 ci was just an improvement from Ford's flat head V8. Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make here is, it's very hard to say that Chev. or Ford (or that other company) makes the best motors. looking back and seeing how all these designs seem to plagerize the best points of the oppositions designs. Hell, I know for a fact that even a lot of the engineering staff and administative staff have worked and contributed to both (or all three) companies. I feel that when we stand up and brag about Ford Power, or Chev. Power, in reality we are really bragging about American "Engine-Knewity"

Look, it's still happening today. Ford kicks @ss one year, Chev. kicks @ss the next. on and on and on.

PS. I wouldn't be surprized if those Chev. drivers were reving those "Zappers" into the 8000 rpm range also.

[This message has been edited by hotratz (edited 12-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by hotratz (edited 12-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by hotratz (edited 12-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by hotratz (edited 12-03-1999).]

 

HI... HOTRATZ : I agree with you 100%. It's good that guys like us keep the memory of the "OLDER" V-8 power plants alive. Chevy and FORD have always had a close competition with each other and I hope it stays like that in the furure as well. It's always good to have a little competition now and then. It keeps us (and CHEVY and FORD) on our toes!8-) I won't even mention DODGE! By the way my buddy has a 289 hi-po in a "85" FORD RANGER and that truck screams. (7500RPM + ) Talk to you later.

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NEAL [ the horsepower freak ] NEWMAN
'99' F-150 XLT SPORT, oxford white, reg cab shortbox stepside,5.4, auto, 4.10L.S, captain's chairs, bedliner, GTS carbon fiber headlight covers, **** CEPECK clear halogen driving lights, GTS slotted tailight covers (painted oxford white), FORD locking lug nuts, tinted windows,true duel exhaust with 2.5 inch mandrel bent pipes and FLOWMASTER 3 chamber mufflers with 3' tailpipes exiting before the rear wheel like the LIGHTNING, HELLWIG rear stabalizer bar, AUTOMETER guage pod and tranny temp guage, custom fabricated air intake trac and huge K/N filter, TPS mod, BELLTECH 2-inch rear drop, custom programed SUPERCHIP.

FUTURE MODS : JBA headers, power pulleys, twin electric fans, traction bars, BAUMANN ENGINEERING shift kit, and a KENNE BELL BLOWZILLA supercharger.
ESTIMATED H.P TO DATE : 310H.P / 405ft/lbs of torque.

 

Yes indeed the, the pre 1972 motors were extremely easy to hotrod and to tell you the truth, I pretty much gave up on even screwing with 'em when the Feds started hanging all that smog crap on 'em, So I'll have to hand it to you all out there who are keeping street rodding alive with the newer vehicles,
It's got to be costly, not only for parts, but when I gave it up, gas was only .35 a gal. (Jeeze, did I just date myself?)

Also, back then we certainly didn't do it with pick-ups much, except for looks. (too damn unsafe)

Neal, that 289 in that Ranger belongs in the 'Stang for sure. I really like the new looks of that car, 'cept I think the '99 look is going the wrong way.

 

7500 rpm is really screaming that little 289, even with its short 2.87" stroke. With a radical solid lifter cam, screw in rocker arm studs, double valve springs, windage tray, etc... I only would take mine up to 6,500 rpm. Maybe the bigger valves of my 351w heads cost me a few revs. Your friend must have a full race cam, maybe a roller cam. I sure love the sound of a hot 289 at hi rpm!

 

Neal,

I called my local Ford dealer just to ask about the main bearing caps, I was told that the 5.4 Triton has FOUR bolts per cap, not six. Two are straight in from the bottom, and one on each side, from the outside. I have never had one apart to be sure, but the dealer was sure. I believe that if the engine has four cams (Cobra, Mark VIII, and maybe Navigator) they get the 6 bolt mains. I'd be suprized if the Lightning didn't have them though.