Has anyone heard or know the "skivvy" on when that crap MTBE will be removed from our California gas pumps?

 

DUCKHUNTER,
I WORK FOR A LARGE OIL REFINERY IN THE DEEP SOUTH, THE MTBE THAT YOU MENTIONED HASN'T BEEN BANNED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT YET AND IT PROBABLY NEVER WILL. YEARS AGO THE GOVERNMENT MADE THE OIL REFINERIES BUILD THE MTBE UNITS TO PRODUCE IT. NOW SOME STATES ARE TRYING TO GET IT BANNED BECAUSE OF ILL EFFECTS. BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOESNT WANT TO BAN IT BECAUSE THEY WOULD PROBABLY BE LIABLE FOR ALL THE LOSSES THE REFINERIES WOULD LOOSE BECAUSE OF SHUTTING DOWN UNITS THE GOVERNEMENT MADE THE REFINERIES BUILD IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I DO EVENTUALLY THINK IT WILL BE BANNED BUT WHEN THAT WILL HAPPEN NO ONE KNOWS. WE HAVE BEEN DOING STUDIES TO SEE IF WE COULD CONVERT OUR MTBE UNIT TO SOMETHING ELSE IN THE EVENT THAT WE DO HAVE TO SHUT DOWN OUR MTBE UNIT.

 

I would definatly have to say that MTBE sucks, It may cut down on air pollution but we have to burn more fuel to get the same distance so, is there really less stuff coming out the tailpipe or is there just diffrent "stuff" (this is a technical term I swear!) coming out of the tailpipe.

 

California has banned MTBE by 2003. It looks like it will be replaced with ethanol, which has its own problems.

The MTBE 'ban' is not exactly a done deal as there is big international money involved in fighting the ban. For example, a Canadian group is suing saying the MTBE ban is a violation of NAFTA.

Where the environment is concerned, the federal government and courts have plenty of precedent in telling the states what to do. IOTW, it's not clear if it is legal for CA to ban MTBE, even though it was a state law that required it in the first place!

IMO, regional fuel requirements for air quality are a big cause of high gas prices. It is difficult to match supply with demand when every region with poor air quality has one blend that is legal while another fuel that is 99.9% the same is illegal.

 

Racer, keep up the good work. Thank you for this piece of information. dirt bag mike, I mean dirt bike mike, just kidding mike. thanks...; ) I really like what you said covell, a certain tru word of wisdom. My mpg is anywhere from 2 to 4 miles per gallon less then getting my gas in Nevada where I go fishing. I live in the bay area and I can travel from Pyramid Lake Nevada which is 30 miles North or Reno all the way to my house which is a 4 1/2 hr drive and have between 1/4 and half tank left. I'm going down hill a bit more on the way home but when taking off from home, I bearly make it to Reno on a full tank. YOur right Covell.........Takes more and pollutes more. I can't wait til the day I get to move out of this dirt bag state anyway.. MTBE sucks, they the environmental extreamist would want to have wood stoves banned if they could...They all need to be hung by their nuts, they know diddly squat about whats tru and whats misrepresentation and disinformation yet our government is stupid enough. Every damn winter, the rain and wind blow the smog that the environmental extreamist deliever to us out of every city. My first black lab died of bronkites of some sort, allergies. I should have had them at the vet or some other trained specialist do a special necropsy to test if traces of MTBE was in fact into his scared broncials. Those who call themselves environmentalist and I'm speaking of the one's who are hard core left wingers like the kind that want to ban 2 stroke motors on some lakes. They really don't like fishermen and hunters. Those who are the radical Jehad, militant hammas just push their garbage onto society and will go to the courts just to make a name for themselves. Now, you cannot even drive your car to Yosemite national park. We use to drive our cars, and camp. Now, if you want to pull up to the camp, how in the hell do campers get all their gear off the bus? They don't. They are slowly closing all camping in the park but a few areas. I don't even get the quarterly camping guide anymore from them. They just want us to drive up and worship the flowers, gather in a circle 'n hold hands, look up to the sky, worship the earth, humm, humm, humm, Be careful, don't step on that dandilion......Those 4 smoke jumpers lost their lives a week ago all because the water team could not get water from a river cause they are protecting endangered salmon. Fish over humans, the sucker fish in the Klamath river over farmers, their children, wives, their livelyhood, our God given right. People, we better wake up to whom we are voting for. I say the republicans are spineless 90% of the time, and to vote for a democrat in the '90's and (now) new millenium is to help our USA commit suicide. They all need to be "hogtied" Hey, is that how you guys say it in the heartland?? We are to blame if we don't vote. I'm really sorry for venting here, but I'm sure that most of us who frequent this board are good and concerned patriotic folks, despite a few who would like to tell me off. Hey, did you see on the Fox news channel that a man had to sell his cattle and could not feed them anymore and could not build a new fense cause they found some crawling creature that they thought was extincted?? The story was told about 3 months ago. YOu see, those "environmental" radicals don't know about these creatures that are still living, because them tru wacko's don't want to live underground therefore, they can't see all them bugs, and crawling creatures and insects. They just want power, and they gain more power by being big Sh-T disturbers. They gain momentum on one court case and they use it to justify another sick lawsuit. How in the world these judges listen to them is beyond me. They too have lost their minds.

 

Dirt Bike Dave

The Candadian company you are refering to is the same company I work for Methanex. We hope that the temp ban of MTBE in CA will be lifted later this year allowing us to make more money. As it looks now the temp ban will be lifted.

Methanex is the worlds largest producer and shipper of Methanol. Methanl can be found in just about everything but we mainly supply it as a gas additive, acids, and many other products.

www.methanex.com

if you want to check it out.

 

The ban on MTBE is great news to American farmers. The ban will result in a much larger market for Ethanol and the corn that it comes from. The farm economy is declining fast and making it hard for us to survive. Prices now arent much more than they were when my grandfather and great grandfather were farming. Yet production costs have soared.

As it looks right now our family's 120 years of farming will be over very soon. Something has to change or it will be over for us and many others and many rural communities will die as well. It is only one state but the increased demand will help us greatly.

Ethanol does not have near the problems that it is said to have. It is compatible with all engines and the affect on fuel economy is negligible. Maybe 1 mpg. Ethanol is required here in certain areas of MN and I cant tell the difference in any of my vehicles between gas with ethanol and gas without. MTBE on the other hand does affect fuel economy more which is another reason to ban it.

The oil companies and foreign countries make enough money...its time for American farmers to prosper. Bring on the ethanol and the biodeisel!

 

Well I felt I had to dump in my 2cents worth here. MTBE = Bad, and what's worse is when EPA was looking for an additive that would increase the oxygen content of fuel they had really two choices (Ethanol and methyl-tert-butyl ether, ppsstt that science talk for MTBE ). EPA put out a public notice on these compounds and just about every scientist (not on a petroleum payroll) said that MTBE would be bad given it's chemical properties (namely it's affinity for water, that's why once it hits the ground water is really difficult to get it out) and it's general human toxicity. So why would EPA approve MTBE over ethanol (which has fewer problems in water [improves water IMO ], and is a better oxygenating additive? HHHHMmmmmm.....

Big Oil $$$. As usual the ones with the most money that can throw at a issue or law usually wins. The oil companies don't typically produce ethanol from crude oil, but they can sure get MTBE from oil. So it was in the oil companies interest to have one of their compounds as the fuel additive. So they pushed their money at all the right senators and representatives and got EPA to ignore the obviously glaring reports on the problems with MTBE. And there you have it.

I agree with Former Ford Man, we need to help the farmers in this state (CA) and the rest of the US. Without them we wouldn't have the best produce in the world.

As far as the banning of 2-stroke engines. Well I have to agree that they have to go. 40% or more of the fuel that is used goes straight through the pipes and dumps into the water. So 0.4 gal for each 1 gal of gas used. Don't get me wrong, I love my gas powered items, but at some point we need to make some changes. I'll stop here so I can go hug my tree and then chop it down for firewood this winter.

 

Former Ford Man - I have heard that there ARE some problems with ethanol - some small and some large. Before I start, I am an Engineer with no ties to the farming, petroleum, or MBTE business.

I'm sorry about the farm but if all the hard working fishermen of the world are getting a poor price for fish these days it does not justify adding 10% whale oil to our automobile engines. The same holds true for cottonseed oil, peanut oil, potato vodka or grain ethanol. If ethanol is actually an effecient source of energy it should have no problem competing with coal, natural gas, or crude oil when selling to the power companies. Those big boilers can burn anything with a high BTU content and the proper scrubbers. They are always looking for cost effective alternative fuels.

Our engines were designed to burn GASOLINE, and optimized to get reasonable performance while minimizing the emissions that occour when GASOLINE is burned. Ethanol/gas mixes burn at different temperatures and different rates and give off different emissions than the fuel our engines were designed for. It is my understanding that the ethanol/gas mix does decrease some types of emissions but that other types of emissions are significantly increased - simply because the engine was designed for a different fuel. The reason we have ethanol in fuel today is that our congressmen are more heavily influenced by the farmers lobby (money) than by the science of the issue. A more reasonable approach might be to design engines that burn 100% ethanol effeciently and cleanly and use them in postal trucks and farm tractors. Let's use the fuels that our vehicles were DESIGNED to burn and stop putting in ethanol or whale oil or whatever just because it is the trend of the day. That way we can be assured that we will get the most efficient use of the fuel with the least emissions.

I read the other day that there are a still a number of mid and late 80's cars on the road today that will not run properly on ethanol fuel. I think I recall that the problem is with the early electronic fuel injection systems and meeting California emissions with the mixed fuel. If our fearless congressmen ban regular (unmixed) gas all those folks will have to scrap thier cars - even if it is a flawless 1989 Crown Vick driven by someones grandmother or a classic 1985 Porsche 911 driven only on Sundays.
I say let people have a choice to buy ethanol fuel if they want it maybe because its cheaper(?) or they have a new car designed for it but don't force it on us - it doesn't make sense.

 

Hi guys, i live in northern california and just read in the newspaper a couple of days ago that our govenor (Gray Davis ) is going to sue the federal government over the use of ethenol as a replacement for the banned MTBE, saying that ethenol will cause a significant increase in the already high prices of gasoline for california and has no scientific evidence it will reduce air pollution levels.

 

There already is some fuel out there that is almost entirely ethanol - it's called E85. 85% Ethanol and 15% Gasoline. Not quite the 100% you are looking for, but almost. Flexible Fuel Vehicles can use this fuel. If you have a Ford Ranger, you may already be equipped to use this fuel. Some Taurus cars were / are also set up this way. These vehicles can run on regular unleaded to E85 to any combination in between. Kind of a neat concept. Unfortunately, the fuel is of course sold at very few places yet, and of course the ethanol production is subsidized, but thats for another day and another arguement.

As far as the two stroke thing goes, if they can clean them up, fine. Otherwise, I have no problem with going to four-strokes in boat motors if it means I won't dump as much junk into the water. Over time, things will only get better with these on boats and snowmobiles and whatever else. Just remember, people thought that the end of leaded gas and emmissions controls were the end of the world for performance - look where we are today. It will take time and some pain, but advances will be made. and we'll probably be better off for it.

Off soapbox...

 

Thanks InfernalCombustion. I too am an Engineer and couldn't agree more. Many gas stations offer 3 levels of octane. Lets have 2 octane levels of ethanol free gas and one level with ethanol for those who wish support farming industry and tree huggers. Don't get me wrong I am appreciative of what agriculture has done for (US)A but let's face it. Its corporate farming (ADM) that has the most to gain from ethanol production.

I drive 80 miles every other week so I can buy ethanol free gas. I have occaisionally used ethanoll when I don't have time for the trip. No one is going to tell me I don't get more power from my truck on ethanol free gas. It's the easiest performance improvement I can get. My seat O the pants meter tells me 10-15 HP. And by the way I consider 1mpg significant when I getting 16.

As for 2 strokers, thank goodness I bought mine last year. I love the smell of oily gas in the morning, Smells like... crappie!


Try not to flame too much. It's just an opinion and I believe I've already lost the war. Ethanol is not going away.

 

And just what do you know about grain markets Tiger? Im sure companies like ADM will profit from increased ethanol use. But 5th generation farmers like myself will also see alot of benefit. Increased demand drives up the price per bushel and our profit. Right now we are lucky to break even most years...even a small increase is a big one to us.

And please dont align farmers with tree huggers...the same huggers who push for oxygenated fuels are also the ones who are against us because we "pollute and destroy the land." I can tell you that we always do what is best for the land...the land is what we depend on so why would we pollute and destroy it?

If things dont change farming will be totally controlled by corporations...you wont want to see your grocery bill then. The only reason that food is as cheap as it is now is that companies like ADM are paying us dirt cheap prices and absorbing all the profit. Once they are in total control people will be starving because they wont be able to afford the price of food.

Sorry for venting but this has to be said. Most americans have no idea what is going on with this.

 

Amen to that Former Ford Man,
I sit in my lab here at UCDavis and toil away on pesticide residue trials so you guys can have tools in your pest control box. I've been on my fair share of Ag tours around the Western US and have seen how farmers rotate crops and lose money for two years so they can plant a good cash crop to make a profit. I didn't believe it until I was out there talking with the farmers.

Now there are other alternatives to MTBE and Ethanol, but they are not as desirable as MTBE or Ethanol (purely from a $$$ standpoint), so it's doubtful that they will see the light of my spark plug.

That thing about Gray Davis (woosy), sueing the Fed about MTBE is BS. He knows we have 2 new plants (I believe) to produce ethanol that could just about take care of california's needs.

I think the point that most are missing, is that MTBE has to go. It was an experiment that failed. Did it help clean the air? You would be hard pressed to prove that it did given the improvements in emissions by the automakers. Does it pollute ground water and effect people's health, Yes. Most of the reason ethanol came as a gas additive was to help solve the oil crisis back in the 70's (right?).

Either way, the sooner MTBE is out of my tank, the better!

 

Thanks 5150PhD...finally someone who sees my point of view on this. Yes MTBE HAS to go and that is the main issue here. It not only pollutes groundwater it has also proven to be hazardous to the workers who produce it.

And yes ethanol was first looked into to help alleviate the oil situation. It has evolved into an effort to help clean up emissions and give American farmers a better market for our grain.

As far as ethanol jacking up gas prices...most of that is a bunch of BS from the oil companies who want to make a profit off of the ethanol requirement. Some major changes need to be made in so many areas. Most likely many of them will never happen until the situation gets much much worse with gas prices and our dependence on the money hungry oil companies and their best buds W. and Cheney.

Ethanol can work. Maybe its not the answer...i dont know what the right answer is. But look at E-85 flex fuel vehicles. If more money was put into developing these vehicles performance and fuel mileage would not have to be compromised. And if money was put into the infrastructure for ethanol and E-85 production we would be alot better off. No longer at the mercy of big oil and foreign countries.

Just my .02