Installed Electric Fan and WOW!
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 155
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From: Montgomery, Alabama
Has anyone here installed a water temp gauge. I was planning putting one in and see what my temp runs at now( highway and city driving). I did a search and did not get any real results. I bought one from Autozone but it is a mechanical type. I see on the intake manifold, right beside the alternator the electrical sensor. I guess my question is, do I need an electrical temp gauge and/or somehow T into that sensor. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Tigard, Or, USA
My $0.02…
I’ve had my electric fans installed for nearly a year now. I’ll apologize now for the long post. I started out with twin 14” perma-cool open style fans, controlled by dual derale adjustable controllers. I also previously installed both a trans temp and engine temp gauge from autometer…So I had a pretty good idea of how the engine ran stock. Using the controllers, I wired the fans so that they could be individually turned on manually, or completely shut both of them off. I also had the pass side set to run with the A/C and it was set at a bit higher temp to help out the drivers side when things got hot. In the cab I installed two led lamps that told me when the fans where actually on.
After about 7 months, the open-style perma cools, just couldn’t hack it in the hot, stop and go weather. So I installed one 16” derale on the drivers side (“main fan”) and a 14” derale on the pass side (“aux, a/c fan”) both controlled by the original set up.
I am pleased with the derale’s, they seem to be more efficient (pull more air, less light dim). The engine stays cooler…..as compared to the perma-cools.
As for the offroad angle……there are different ways to look at that. If you are off-roading, chances are that you are not moving that fast, or turning lots of rpm’s. An electric fan will move 100% of the air that it can…..the stock fan can only move as much as the rpms of the engine. But there is also the reliability factor. A stock fan, will most likely not fail, but it is not cooling the engine as much. However…..If you really want to worry about things getting hot at slow speeds…Check your trans temp. Whether you stick with stock or electric, you may want to “add” an electric fan to your trans cooler, (if you have a trans cooler) or add a trans cooler with fan. Because the hotter the engine gets, the trans gets proportionately hotter. This is very evident in stop and go traffic.
Your engine has a built-in failsafe if it gets too hot, whether you 4x4 or not, or whether you have an electric/stock fan. BUT your TRANS will COOK if you don’t pay attention!
Electrics will free up power when they are not running…but because they are only running when they HAVE too, you have more power the other 95% of the time.
Sorry for the long post….there are many of us here who have electrics and wouldn’t go back.
I’ve had my electric fans installed for nearly a year now. I’ll apologize now for the long post. I started out with twin 14” perma-cool open style fans, controlled by dual derale adjustable controllers. I also previously installed both a trans temp and engine temp gauge from autometer…So I had a pretty good idea of how the engine ran stock. Using the controllers, I wired the fans so that they could be individually turned on manually, or completely shut both of them off. I also had the pass side set to run with the A/C and it was set at a bit higher temp to help out the drivers side when things got hot. In the cab I installed two led lamps that told me when the fans where actually on.
After about 7 months, the open-style perma cools, just couldn’t hack it in the hot, stop and go weather. So I installed one 16” derale on the drivers side (“main fan”) and a 14” derale on the pass side (“aux, a/c fan”) both controlled by the original set up.
I am pleased with the derale’s, they seem to be more efficient (pull more air, less light dim). The engine stays cooler…..as compared to the perma-cools.
As for the offroad angle……there are different ways to look at that. If you are off-roading, chances are that you are not moving that fast, or turning lots of rpm’s. An electric fan will move 100% of the air that it can…..the stock fan can only move as much as the rpms of the engine. But there is also the reliability factor. A stock fan, will most likely not fail, but it is not cooling the engine as much. However…..If you really want to worry about things getting hot at slow speeds…Check your trans temp. Whether you stick with stock or electric, you may want to “add” an electric fan to your trans cooler, (if you have a trans cooler) or add a trans cooler with fan. Because the hotter the engine gets, the trans gets proportionately hotter. This is very evident in stop and go traffic.
Your engine has a built-in failsafe if it gets too hot, whether you 4x4 or not, or whether you have an electric/stock fan. BUT your TRANS will COOK if you don’t pay attention!
Electrics will free up power when they are not running…but because they are only running when they HAVE too, you have more power the other 95% of the time.
Sorry for the long post….there are many of us here who have electrics and wouldn’t go back.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,506
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Dennis,
You have some good points but you are not taking into account many of the factors that effect fan operation in the real world. First, as far as the energy saving aspects of a gyroscope, the heavy stock fan is anything but a gyroscope at a constant rpm. It has to be accellerated and decellerated every time engine rpm changes. Each accelleration will require energy to get the mass moving again.
With a fan, there is going to be one rpm where it is most efficient as far as air moved for the power required. The vast majority of the time, the stock fan will not be at the optimum rpm, whereas the electric fan should be designed to spin only at the optimum most efficient rpm.
Even with the fan on anytime the AC compressor is activated, its lightness and operation at optimum rpm will overcome the losses inherent in spinning the alternator.
There are 3 good reasons for manufacturers to use a mechanical fan:
1) It is inexpensive
2) It is reliable
3) Lessens strain on the charging system
But for the past 20+ years many vehicles have been built with electric fans for the following reasons:
1) Less parasitic HP loss, even accounting for alternator drag
2) Better fuel economy
3) More flexibility in packaging the motor/cooling system.
The benefits of electric fans have been proven for decades on passenger vehicles. If you don't feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for a truck/tow/offroad vehicle, no problem.
But you will not be able to convince me that a mechanical fan is more fuel and power efficient than a good electric, because in the real world it is not.
You have some good points but you are not taking into account many of the factors that effect fan operation in the real world. First, as far as the energy saving aspects of a gyroscope, the heavy stock fan is anything but a gyroscope at a constant rpm. It has to be accellerated and decellerated every time engine rpm changes. Each accelleration will require energy to get the mass moving again.
With a fan, there is going to be one rpm where it is most efficient as far as air moved for the power required. The vast majority of the time, the stock fan will not be at the optimum rpm, whereas the electric fan should be designed to spin only at the optimum most efficient rpm.
Even with the fan on anytime the AC compressor is activated, its lightness and operation at optimum rpm will overcome the losses inherent in spinning the alternator.
There are 3 good reasons for manufacturers to use a mechanical fan:
1) It is inexpensive
2) It is reliable
3) Lessens strain on the charging system
But for the past 20+ years many vehicles have been built with electric fans for the following reasons:
1) Less parasitic HP loss, even accounting for alternator drag
2) Better fuel economy
3) More flexibility in packaging the motor/cooling system.
The benefits of electric fans have been proven for decades on passenger vehicles. If you don't feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for a truck/tow/offroad vehicle, no problem.
But you will not be able to convince me that a mechanical fan is more fuel and power efficient than a good electric, because in the real world it is not.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Jackhel,
Instead of installing a guage you can get a temperatur readout from the odometer. Just hold the trip/odo button while starting the engine and continue to hold until the odo changes modes. I forget the first reading it gives, but it goes through guage and light checks and some computer codes. Then it finally gets to rpm (tach) and temperature. The temp is in celcius. But this gives you a quick (cheap) check if that's what your looking for. There was a post about all of the codes but you'll have to do a search to find it.
Instead of installing a guage you can get a temperatur readout from the odometer. Just hold the trip/odo button while starting the engine and continue to hold until the odo changes modes. I forget the first reading it gives, but it goes through guage and light checks and some computer codes. Then it finally gets to rpm (tach) and temperature. The temp is in celcius. But this gives you a quick (cheap) check if that's what your looking for. There was a post about all of the codes but you'll have to do a search to find it.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
From: DOT BOMB CITY!
Anyone thought of simply replacing the stock fan?
QUOTE FROM PERMA-COOL:
"Turbo Flex® Flex Fans pull additional air through the radiator at low RPMs when the speed of the vehicle is not enough to cool the engine's coolant system. At higher RPMs, when the vehicle's speed forces ample air through the radiator, the fan blades flatten out, resulting in less power being used to spin the fan. Engine performance and gas mileage are thus improved."
http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page20.html
Anyone tried these? Sounds like this would be the better of both worlds?
Anythoughts?
QUOTE FROM PERMA-COOL:
"Turbo Flex® Flex Fans pull additional air through the radiator at low RPMs when the speed of the vehicle is not enough to cool the engine's coolant system. At higher RPMs, when the vehicle's speed forces ample air through the radiator, the fan blades flatten out, resulting in less power being used to spin the fan. Engine performance and gas mileage are thus improved."
http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page20.html
Anyone tried these? Sounds like this would be the better of both worlds?
Anythoughts?
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,233
Likes: 0
Originally posted by BERVINATOR
3) Is there a difference in compressor cycle time between A/C and Max A/C on the selector switch or does it only increase the circulation fan speed? (I have had this question for some time)
3) Is there a difference in compressor cycle time between A/C and Max A/C on the selector switch or does it only increase the circulation fan speed? (I have had this question for some time)
The compressor will cycle off more often in Max A/C position because hot outside air is not introduced into the a/c system. In the A/C position, the outside intake vent is opened and the system has to deal with hot outside air.
The fan speed doesn't change. It only seems that way. What you're actually hearing when it sounds like the fan is making more noise in the Max position is air being sucked thru the recirculation intake duct that's located in the passenger area. When in A/C mode, this intake duct is closed and the air is sucked in from the outside cowl vent.
Well, being totally nit picky and **** retentive, the fan speed might be changing. I have a feeling that there's less airflow resistance when in Max mode because of less restrictive duct work on the intake side. Whereas the intake duct work to the outside vent is more restrictive. Assuming our a/c has the typical squirrel cage blower, the more restrictive a system is, the faster the blower will spin. The less restrictive, the slower it will spin.
That's the funny thing about centrifugal pumps. You shut off the flow of air or water and the thing practically free wheels. Give it unrestricted flow and current draw increases dramatically.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,002
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
here we go again
Lets see here is the debate again:
1. stock engine driven fan. Noise, water pump issues, less power and mileage, but it is always spinning.
2. electrics. more power and mileage. less vibration on the water pump prolongs the life of it. It does draw some power, but the 97+ trucks all have 3G 130amp alternators to handle it.
So here we go again with the same debate. you have 2 sides:
1. old, will not change, stubborn, nothing you can do will change thier minds. They say it is not more reliable. I remember the same type of people when Fuel Injection went main stream in the mid 80s. they complianed they could not work on the cars anymore, less power, less mileage, less mods, etc. Well look now! Most people prefer EFI to carbs. I sure do in cars and trucks! Getting back to fans:
But this is what they are missing out on: 1-2 mpg. longer water pump life. less engine noise. Increased power.
Now they are also going to say that you cannot move as much air and do not have the reliability. Well they have a long, hard uphill battle.
-at idle, which is fan is better? The stock engine fan running at 750rpms or an electric fan like the Mark8 unit that runs at 2200 rpms? Both are 18" blades?
Should be an easy question! Electric!
- at 55mph, which fan is better? The stocker that is running at say 1700rpms with the motor or a percentage of if the fan clutch has disengaged OR an electric that is not running and allowing all the air from the speed of the truck to cool the motor.
Electric again. if the engine driven fan is flowing less air than what the truck is pushing through there, it is going to cause a back flow of air and decrease the amount of cooling
- at 35mph which is beter?
This is the gray area. Most of the time the electric fan rated for the truck will NEVER have a problem. If you are running the motor like above 4K for the next 20 minutes, it will. But you are not moving fast enough to start cooling the engine by the air speed alone here.
2. You get the people that want the power, mileage and better cooling of the electric fans. Yes, better.
There are a few pointers here. 1 install a fan that is rated for the application. The mark8 fan in the f150s will flow more air than the towing rating for the truck on high! that is no lie and will NOT cause any cooling issues.
No get the cheap 14" fan from autozone, that is not going to do the job.
I strongly believe in the OEM fans. Why? cause that is the LAST part manufacturer's want to fail on a car and cause engine problems. They over engineer them for sure. They flow more air than aftermarket units, can mount in the stock fan shrouds with little modification and are very reliable. Go ask the local police force if they have had issues with the electric fans on the Crown Vic units!
Plus they have the built in backup of the ford computer in the trucks with the 100mile limp mode. Also if they can get on a main road and get to about 45mph with no electric fan working, it would not be needed anyways at that speed.
Another thing is that the electric fans keep the engine temperature more consistent! yes they do. You do have the thermostat, but if you wire the fan with a contoller that reads the temp of the engine, it will keep it there with the fan on or off it is too cold.
Well I am rambling and loosing focus. Obviously this is a loosing battle for those that do NOT want to accept change here. The electric fan is the way -- more power, mileage, reliability, cooling stability. Ford knows it, so do other car/truck manufacturers in the world.
Now before someone says "well the diesels do not have an electric fan" well in 2003 they are getting an electric fan clutch. Best of both worlds and yes you can get them aftermarket presently.
Well I am done. I sure like the 1-2mpg more I get from the truck with an electric fan. heck in my mustang GT, I can get 28mpg at 75mph on the freeway. That is a 3-5mpg improvement there with just the addition of a Fiero GT fan. So proof is out there! Get the electric fan! great mod, you will never regret it if you do it right!
1. stock engine driven fan. Noise, water pump issues, less power and mileage, but it is always spinning.
2. electrics. more power and mileage. less vibration on the water pump prolongs the life of it. It does draw some power, but the 97+ trucks all have 3G 130amp alternators to handle it.
So here we go again with the same debate. you have 2 sides:
1. old, will not change, stubborn, nothing you can do will change thier minds. They say it is not more reliable. I remember the same type of people when Fuel Injection went main stream in the mid 80s. they complianed they could not work on the cars anymore, less power, less mileage, less mods, etc. Well look now! Most people prefer EFI to carbs. I sure do in cars and trucks! Getting back to fans:
But this is what they are missing out on: 1-2 mpg. longer water pump life. less engine noise. Increased power.
Now they are also going to say that you cannot move as much air and do not have the reliability. Well they have a long, hard uphill battle.
-at idle, which is fan is better? The stock engine fan running at 750rpms or an electric fan like the Mark8 unit that runs at 2200 rpms? Both are 18" blades?
Should be an easy question! Electric!
- at 55mph, which fan is better? The stocker that is running at say 1700rpms with the motor or a percentage of if the fan clutch has disengaged OR an electric that is not running and allowing all the air from the speed of the truck to cool the motor.
Electric again. if the engine driven fan is flowing less air than what the truck is pushing through there, it is going to cause a back flow of air and decrease the amount of cooling
- at 35mph which is beter?
This is the gray area. Most of the time the electric fan rated for the truck will NEVER have a problem. If you are running the motor like above 4K for the next 20 minutes, it will. But you are not moving fast enough to start cooling the engine by the air speed alone here.
2. You get the people that want the power, mileage and better cooling of the electric fans. Yes, better.
There are a few pointers here. 1 install a fan that is rated for the application. The mark8 fan in the f150s will flow more air than the towing rating for the truck on high! that is no lie and will NOT cause any cooling issues.
No get the cheap 14" fan from autozone, that is not going to do the job.
I strongly believe in the OEM fans. Why? cause that is the LAST part manufacturer's want to fail on a car and cause engine problems. They over engineer them for sure. They flow more air than aftermarket units, can mount in the stock fan shrouds with little modification and are very reliable. Go ask the local police force if they have had issues with the electric fans on the Crown Vic units!
Plus they have the built in backup of the ford computer in the trucks with the 100mile limp mode. Also if they can get on a main road and get to about 45mph with no electric fan working, it would not be needed anyways at that speed.
Another thing is that the electric fans keep the engine temperature more consistent! yes they do. You do have the thermostat, but if you wire the fan with a contoller that reads the temp of the engine, it will keep it there with the fan on or off it is too cold.
Well I am rambling and loosing focus. Obviously this is a loosing battle for those that do NOT want to accept change here. The electric fan is the way -- more power, mileage, reliability, cooling stability. Ford knows it, so do other car/truck manufacturers in the world.
Now before someone says "well the diesels do not have an electric fan" well in 2003 they are getting an electric fan clutch. Best of both worlds and yes you can get them aftermarket presently.
Well I am done. I sure like the 1-2mpg more I get from the truck with an electric fan. heck in my mustang GT, I can get 28mpg at 75mph on the freeway. That is a 3-5mpg improvement there with just the addition of a Fiero GT fan. So proof is out there! Get the electric fan! great mod, you will never regret it if you do it right!
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,233
Likes: 0
...and then you have the guys with electric fans and modified air filter housings or fipks that don't even have a housing complaining about lack of power because of increased under hood temperatures when coming off of a stop where the electric fan isn't running.
Like I've said in other threads, an electric fan isn't the panacea that some people think it is.
Like I've said in other threads, an electric fan isn't the panacea that some people think it is.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Kemah, TX
Get the electric fan! great mod, you will never regret it if you do it right!
What I'm asking is, will you reccomend an electric fan. For instance, what size fan? what best volume flow? quality brand? You can't just buy any electric fan can you?
-Joel
MattGT90-
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Quoted from Matt on 3-24-01 for Max_M (if I may):
Okay, here is the install:
-pop the hood
-Remove the jack rod
-remove the plastic pop nuts that hold the plastic skirt over the top of the radiator. use a phillips screw driver to unscrew them, then pull out.
-remove the plastic cover/skirt
-You need a fan wrench. Autozone has them for $30 or free tool loaner program.
-The fan unscrews from the water pump shaft. If you will look you will see. The haynes manual is WRONG in there. It is right hand thread. So torque towards the passenger side to unscrew it. Just break it lose now.
-use a 8mm socket wrench and remove the 2 bolts holding the fan shroud.
-Finish unscrewing the fan, and remove the shround and fan.
-toss the fan to the side.
-take the CV (crown vic) fan and place it inside the shroud. Since it is fiberglass and covers the whole radiator, we are going to use it to mount the CV fan to. Keeps a stock look also.
-there are 3 mounting tabs on the fan. I used a 7/16" bolts, nuts and washers. Drill the 3 holes. 1 at 6 o'clock bottom, then the other 2. Use the fan as a guide to drill.
-Bolt the electic fan up, use locktite on the bolts.
Now put the shroud/fan setup back in. It slips into place on the lower sides of the radiator, then held in place with the stock bolts.
- Now to wiring up the fan! I bought a HAYDEN brand electric fan controller. It has AC on and adjustable temp selection. Very easy to install. Ran me $30 and has a 30 amp relay in it also. I may replace this with like a 45 amp later if I run into problems.
-I mounted the controller to the left of the radiator. I drilled 1 hole and used a self tapping screw to mount it. I also used some black gasket maker silicone on the back of the controller to glue it down also.
-Drill another hole above and to the side of the contoller for a ground.
-mount the ground wire (black wire) from the controller and the ground from the fan. You will need a piece of wire to extend the fan ground wire here. I used the blue lead that I cut off.
-I cut the second fan lead from the controller (blue wire) and hooked up the positive from the controller to the positive on the fan (orange wire)
-the green wire goes to the positive AC wire. This is a PIA to get to! The AC unit is under the belt tensioner. Remove the plug, strip back the tape and splice into the black/green stripe wire there.
- Now I am a bit lazy, but this works well. I wired the positive and the iginition on wire directly to the battery. Works well in the stang, and have not had any dead batteries from it. It will only turn on when it gets to or above the preset temp. In the summer it only did it about twice for 20 seconds before not running again. Some extra insurance once the key is off in the summer that things will stay cool.
- mount the temperature probe by the water inlet hose. There is a large opening in the top left of the radiator that I used. I did not have to punch thru the fins there. Secure it as per the instructions with the plastic zip ties parts.
-now time to test! turn the key to on. Then turn on the AC. The fan should kick on. Check to see that it is blowing air into the engine compartment, not out the radiator. There should be a LOT of air movement! You can feel the air flow in front of the radiator!
-once that is good, turn off the truck. Use zip ties to secure all the wires.
-start the motor and test again. You will not be able to adjust the temperature until the truck is at operating temperature. So leave that for a while. I have noticed that they are preset at 190 degrees on the hayden units. That is when the stock thermastat opens, so that is about perfect.
-install the plastic skirt/cover back and the jack rod, drop the hood and enjoy! You just freed up some HP from the parasitic drag of the stock fan! this will help in acceleration and MPG!
END QUOTE
I had saved this so it was easy for me to find. Hope you don't mind Matt.
Matt, I used these instructions and it was right on the money. I did want to also add if anyone is concerned about the alternator drag a start capacitor in-line on the power feed will ease any regulator alternator voltage fluctuations, but I don't really see that to be a problem.
Great Mod for the Money!
Oh yea, I found the Hayden Controller @ Pep Boys if that helps ya Max.
-pop the hood
-Remove the jack rod
-remove the plastic pop nuts that hold the plastic skirt over the top of the radiator. use a phillips screw driver to unscrew them, then pull out.
-remove the plastic cover/skirt
-You need a fan wrench. Autozone has them for $30 or free tool loaner program.
-The fan unscrews from the water pump shaft. If you will look you will see. The haynes manual is WRONG in there. It is right hand thread. So torque towards the passenger side to unscrew it. Just break it lose now.
-use a 8mm socket wrench and remove the 2 bolts holding the fan shroud.
-Finish unscrewing the fan, and remove the shround and fan.
-toss the fan to the side.
-take the CV (crown vic) fan and place it inside the shroud. Since it is fiberglass and covers the whole radiator, we are going to use it to mount the CV fan to. Keeps a stock look also.
-there are 3 mounting tabs on the fan. I used a 7/16" bolts, nuts and washers. Drill the 3 holes. 1 at 6 o'clock bottom, then the other 2. Use the fan as a guide to drill.
-Bolt the electic fan up, use locktite on the bolts.
Now put the shroud/fan setup back in. It slips into place on the lower sides of the radiator, then held in place with the stock bolts.
- Now to wiring up the fan! I bought a HAYDEN brand electric fan controller. It has AC on and adjustable temp selection. Very easy to install. Ran me $30 and has a 30 amp relay in it also. I may replace this with like a 45 amp later if I run into problems.
-I mounted the controller to the left of the radiator. I drilled 1 hole and used a self tapping screw to mount it. I also used some black gasket maker silicone on the back of the controller to glue it down also.
-Drill another hole above and to the side of the contoller for a ground.
-mount the ground wire (black wire) from the controller and the ground from the fan. You will need a piece of wire to extend the fan ground wire here. I used the blue lead that I cut off.
-I cut the second fan lead from the controller (blue wire) and hooked up the positive from the controller to the positive on the fan (orange wire)
-the green wire goes to the positive AC wire. This is a PIA to get to! The AC unit is under the belt tensioner. Remove the plug, strip back the tape and splice into the black/green stripe wire there.
- Now I am a bit lazy, but this works well. I wired the positive and the iginition on wire directly to the battery. Works well in the stang, and have not had any dead batteries from it. It will only turn on when it gets to or above the preset temp. In the summer it only did it about twice for 20 seconds before not running again. Some extra insurance once the key is off in the summer that things will stay cool.
- mount the temperature probe by the water inlet hose. There is a large opening in the top left of the radiator that I used. I did not have to punch thru the fins there. Secure it as per the instructions with the plastic zip ties parts.
-now time to test! turn the key to on. Then turn on the AC. The fan should kick on. Check to see that it is blowing air into the engine compartment, not out the radiator. There should be a LOT of air movement! You can feel the air flow in front of the radiator!
-once that is good, turn off the truck. Use zip ties to secure all the wires.
-start the motor and test again. You will not be able to adjust the temperature until the truck is at operating temperature. So leave that for a while. I have noticed that they are preset at 190 degrees on the hayden units. That is when the stock thermastat opens, so that is about perfect.
-install the plastic skirt/cover back and the jack rod, drop the hood and enjoy! You just freed up some HP from the parasitic drag of the stock fan! this will help in acceleration and MPG!
END QUOTE
I had saved this so it was easy for me to find. Hope you don't mind Matt.
Matt, I used these instructions and it was right on the money. I did want to also add if anyone is concerned about the alternator drag a start capacitor in-line on the power feed will ease any regulator alternator voltage fluctuations, but I don't really see that to be a problem.
Great Mod for the Money!
Oh yea, I found the Hayden Controller @ Pep Boys if that helps ya Max.
LaunchinLiteLariat-