Well.... After reading through all 5 pages of this thread (a daunting task in itself), I have finally decided to make my first post on the forum.

Growing up in western N.C. I was blessed with learning about cars in the heart of NASCAR county. I had 4 of my neighbors within a 2 mile radius whose folks built racecars in their own backyard barns, (all 4 of em were also the people to talk to about getting some good quality moonshine too but .. well NASCAR was started by moonshiners as well go figure.) Anyway, I learned alot about cars, and tuning, ect... I also clued in on the Ford vs. Chevy ... ect.. ect...

Now years later I typically find myself driving Fords, and now I have my 4th one, my 06' F-150 SCREW 4X4. My joy was shortlived when I learned about the headaches associated with the Spark plug issue with the 5.4L. And when I seen the design for the spark plug design, I thought.. WTF is that $4!t? Honestly It was apparant that someone was extremely high in engineering class when they graduated, and someone else was just as high for hireing the stoner that created the design for these.

Its no secret, and even ford knows it... Its a crappy, if not the most crappy design for a sparkplug. But alas... Ford bussinessmen have turned lemons into lemonade for themself. Step one, the put a TSB out on it.. therefore they don't have to cover it in a warranty. Step two, they have their subcompany comeout with "aftermarket" plugs (Autolite). Step three, they make an extraction tool in the event of "issues arising from changing the sparkplugs". All in all they let the fear of changing these plugs by the shade tree mechanic, turn into profit, by increasing their dealerships profits from tune-ups. Blah blah blah... We don't care about that stuff... the bottom line, its created a pain in the **** for us! But we love the trucks, and we love the brand.. so we suck it up and we deal with it.

Now, with the Champion design, yes, its a proven design.. I mean.. hell, the 5.4L Trition is pretty much the only engine where the STANDARD, spark plug looks radically different from every other automotive spark plug. (Im not talking about splitfires or that 4+ plug with the 4 electrodes). That being said, I am sure that there, well let me rephrase, as we have read in the past 5 pages, there are obviously some people who are biased about what automotive parts they want to put in their engine.. So lets now get down to brass tacks...

Motorcraft, and Autolite.. Its the original design, a design by all basics that while it works... is still a royal pain in the ****... and as such... even when following all precautions, you still need some luck to get all 8 plugs out in one peice, and just as much if not more, if they do break, to get ALL of the pieces of the plug out... (without having to perform some surgery to your engine that is). General consensus said... We all wish it wasn't so damn hard to change this design of plug... but.. we will suck it up and "git er dun".

Now on the other side theres the Champion plug. Proven design.. (every other plug pretty much looks like it).. Now... whether the plug sucks or not.. I don't think has to do so much with the manufacturer, as much as the design... THIS A PLUG MEANT TO BE GAPPED! The original is NOT! The original comes in one gap size that is pre-gapped
.045 The Champion on the other hand comes with 2 different gap reccomendations: .040 and .045 . And then theres the issue of the "heat" thing. (which Im still confused.. I thought that only applied to combustion engines designed to run alcohol (racing), and diesel engines, not standard passenger cars and light trucks).

Now... I don't have any solid data... but looking at the contact area of where the spark can go in the OEM plugs v/s the Champion.. It looks to me like the OEM plug is able to produce an array of spark across the top of the "arched" electrode top, during each firing period. The champion on the other hand will most likley (like every other spark plug) have a stronger single spark that will go to the same point every time. I think that this, combined with the fact that the GAP in the plug could very much not be the best one for this plug with this engine, may in fact be the real reason the people that HAVE had issues with Champion plugs, have those issues. And at the same time, the people that have NOT had issues with Champion plugs, is simply because they have the true necessary gap size in thier plug.

Well... I suppose that in the end.. WE ... the consumer, will always be the ones taking it in the end.. But we suck it up... For those of us that want to just have it work, no matter how much time we spend, we try the "more proven" plug and we'll stick with it.. For those that don't want that risk they will go with the Champion plug, and hope they don't have an issue.

Well.. sorry for the long post.. but this late at night... insomnia is a biz nitch.

GD

 

Well said!

 

No it's not. His reply is avoiding simple facts in an attempt to brainwash fellow users of this site. My guess is Ghostduck was sent here by JimAllen whom are both trying to push a bad product onto people here. Simple facts directed the amount of users that have tried Champion plugs only to have them fail. These users (the true test) by far out weigh the ones trying to sell the product. Sure they have a few groupies, but look at how new most of them are to this site.

This is the only way they can make it on this here without getting the boot. Otherwise it could be regarded as spam. Everyone that I know well enough to trust has reported the opposite of this clan.

Believe what you may, but remember, there are some pretty clever marketers out there that will do anything they can for paycheck and that means cutting your throat.

I've been here along time and don't recognize any of these people. Be careful.

 

Do you realize jbrew, does anyone else here realize, how utterly insane that sounds? It's borderline delusional! You don't know me at all yet, twice now, you've accused me of being a "clever marketer." Based on what? By the fact that I pointed out what a piece-o-dung design that two-piece plug is and that they have cost Ford truck owners millions of dollars?

Jbrew, your last post did not deal with the facts or subject of the argument at all. You simply insulted those who disagreed with you. Way to go to the head of the debate class.

On point, I've heard over and over, "Oh all you need to do is follow the TSB." True, it increases your odds but overall, it’s still likely you’ll have broken off plugs. Sure, those of us with greasy hands can deal with it but that doesn’t address the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of everyday people who go into a shop for a $100 tune up and leave with a $400-3000 repair bill and a sore rectum. The non-mechanically inclined Ford truck owners outnumber us gearheads by orders of magnitude. If the tech at the shop a person goes to is up on the removal procedure, then the situation will be as painless as possible for the Ford truck owner. If not, then the Ford truck owner is gonna pay that tech to get an education. That’s not in the least way fair. At the end of it, that Ford truck owner is not likely to be a Ford truck owner the next chance he has to trade trucks. And it all comes down to a poorly conceived design that Ford dropped like a hot rivet four years after it went into production. If you Google, you can actually find the patent for the plugs. The guy who invented that spark plug for Allied Signal is listed as Matthew B. Below. Rumor has it that he lost his job over the design, but I don’t know that as fact.

As to Champions, mine have about 4K miles on them now and nothing bad has happened. No misfires, no problems. We’ll see how they hold up in the long term.

Objectively, I see very little problem with the Champion design. They are one-piece, of course, which negates the breaking off issue. What about the rest of it? They are double platinum (meaning both the tip and electrode have platinum) and if you want that in a Motorcraft/Autolite, you have to pay about as much as the Champ costs. The U-gap ground electrode on the Autolite is often remarked upon, but in reality, it’s quite unremarkable. It tends to shroud the spark a bit vs a J-gap plug like the Champ. Note that the new Ford 3V plug upgrade is a J-gap type. J-gaps with small diameter center electrodes have generally proven to be most effective in today’s lean running engines. There are white papers written on that fact but the bottom line is that for all intents and purposes, j-gap and u-gap perform pretty equally.

As to gapping, at least you CAN easily regap the Champion. With the MC/AL, you can buy a $70 tool to do it (that's what the supercharger guys do) or you can put them into a vice and use a hammer. If you check a large batch of new Autolites you'll see the same variances in gaps as you might find with new Champs. All plug companies claim to offer “pregapped” plugs and we all know that’s hooey. Even if they leave the factory correctly pregapped, boxes get dropped and you may have to correct the gap.

As to problems after installing Champs, some, if not most, of that can be traced back to things other than the spark plug. Note how much different the porcelain body of the Champ is vs the MC/AL. The Champ is smooth and a smaller diameter. Champ claims to use a better quality porcelain and that they don’t need as much porcelain, nor the ribs. I can’t verify that, but the difference in dimensions and profile are the important part for us to note. The COP boot gets heat formed to the profile of the MC/AL. If you put that same boot onto the smaller diameter Champ, it leaves room for the spark to jump, and those Ford COPS will jump if you give them half a chance. I was told they can make up to 15 amps, not to mention 70K volts. A tight boot is vital, so if you want success with a Champ REPLACE THE BOOTS. You really should do so with any plug change if the plug’s been in there a while, but it’s most important when changing brands of plug.

I dug up every heat range chart I could find and I don’t know where this “Champion is the wrong heat range” stuff is coming from. At least as it applies to more or less stock engines. A substantially modified engine needs a different heat range from stock… I think we all should know that. From what I can see, and have been told by engineers, the Champs are the correct heat range for a stock engine and they have run thousands of hours on dyno engines and in vehicles. Champ will soon be offering some other ranges, as do Autolite and Brisk, for supercharged and other racing or high performance apps.

As to longevity, I take note in my own Ford manual, and others, that Ford recommends the 100K interval only in ideal conditions. For in town driving, slow speed, lots of idling… pretty much what most commuters do… they recommend 60K. I polled a number of good sources in shops that say seldom do anyone’s 100K spark plug intervals (regardless of spark plug) work out real-world. If you throw an 80K truck on the scope, regardless of spark plug, the odds are you will find room for improvement. With a double platinum design, I don’t know why a Champ wouldn’t last as long as any other premium plug,.. however long that may be according to the driving conditions


Want some tips to help avoid the breakage problem? or make it easier when you go to remove Autolites? Run high detergent, Top Tier gasoline (Google "Top Tier Gasoline"). When I pulled my plugs in January ‘10, ALL EIGHT CAME OUT IN ONE PIECE! Very little carbon on the plugs, meaning the gas was keeping the carbon from playing "Loctite" and locking the plug in place. By running a couple of tanks of gas through before the change with a high concentration of a CC deposit remover additive like Chevron Techron or Shell V-Power might do the same thing for you. I didn't do that by the way and I only soaked the plugs for 15 min w/PB Blaster. Here are the plugs.

As to ME, jbrew, you don’t know me at all. But if you Google “Jim Allen” with “4x4” you’ll get some info. I hate “outing” myself this way, but I’ve been a freelance writer for automotive magazines for over 20 years, after a previous 20 years as an ASE Master auto tech and three years before that as a soldier, so I really resent my objectivity being questioned this way. I don’t claim to be right all the time but I have learned to be open minded when looking at various products. The reason I am freelance vs being a staffer (aside from having to live in the LA area… I’m not worth the money they’d have to pay me to get me to live there) is that I can “freely” write about products I can feel good about. A staffer might not have that option. For every product I have written about, there are two I turned down because I did some research and didn’t want my name attached to it. I’m not always right in that regard either, I can be fooled too, but I try. Unfortunately, once the article is written, I can’t just say “whoops” and move on. The article is there forever (dammit!).

I started coming to this, and other Ford F-150 forums, when I bought my truck in ’08. Hey, I’m an enthusiast too and I love the truck. I was pretty shocked at the anti-Champion sentiment and that inspired my research. Jbrew, you and others on this board might be pleased to learn you were the primary motivators for an upcoming article on the 3V spark plug problems. I owe you some thanks for that idea and the motivation to do it. Watch Four Wheeler magazine in the near future. The story is a lot less “pro” Champion than you probably would guess, and a lot less pro Champion than Champion wanted. Still, Federal Mogul/Napa (they have a joint training program) were kind enough to send an engineer out to my shop and coach me though a 3V spark plug change on my truck. This guy travels around training techs how to do it right and he’s seen just about everything in the way of problems and has a lot of practical experience. He was even in on the testing and qualifications when the plugs were being developed and told me a lot about how that is done. With a “coach” there, I really wanted one to break off so I could experience the Lisle tool, but wouldn’tcha know, they all came out! Federal Mogul gave me enough access to engineering data on the plugs involved and all that settled my mind about, a) writing about Champions, and b) putting them in my own truck.

For the record, I don’t know Ghostduck, or if I do, I don’t know I know him.

Finally, if what you wrote above is how you make judgments about people, I thank the Creator that the 16,000 or so posts you've made on this forum is all the world hears from you. I certainly hope you don't vote.

 

You're kidding me right!? First.. I dont work for Any auto parts store.. I work for a Propane Comany in Post Falls Idaho. I don't know, nor have the Slightest clue as to who Jim Allen is much less what the heck he does for a living, or where his experience with cars comes from. And furthermore I can honestly say the same thing about you.

Before there was a school for rocket science, there was combustion engines. Every gear head knows that the more complex you make it, ther more crap there is to go wrong.. Its a simple fundamental in anything that has been tried and true.. The simpler it is, the less likely it is to break.

I don't care who makes the damn spark plug.. whether its motorcraft, NGK, Champion, Delco, or even the company that lets blind people make lightbulbs. But if its a **** poor design that causes the consumer a headache, then its a piece of crap!

You can only polish a turd so much, but in the end its still a turd..

I have Motorcraft Plugs in my truck right now with 109K miles on it. When I change em, Im' gonna go with what I feel will be the most cost effective plug that I can change ON MY OWN! If I up and screw up my truck doing it... Then I have noone to blame but myself.. I make $15.30 an hour to support myself, my wife and two kids.. I cannot afford in my own concience, to be able to shell out $300 bucks to a damn repair shop to change out something that should be no different than changing a fuse. But no... Ford designed a POS for a spark plug.. Does it work?. YES, is it efficient? For the Triton engine it was designed for, It appears that way... Could they have done a better job designing it for the consumer to replace...? You bet your **** they could have!!! If Motorcraft were to swallow crow, and admit, that they hopped on the good foot and did the bad thing with this design and come out with a redesigned plug that eliminates all of the issues involved with changing them, instead of requiring a damn Voodoo ritual to change em, I would be tickled to death, and would sing their praises.

Fact is they didn't. Champion came out with another plug. Is it the best thing since sliced bread? I have no idea! I don't have em in my truck.. But I'm open minded enough to give em a try if it will ease some of the burdeon off of my wallet.. If it screws my truck up... then guess what... MY LOSS, and a hard lesson learned... But I will not come here, and offer a simple opinion neither for or against either product that has track records of both success and failure. And to come on here and accuse me of something I am not, and in the fashion that have done, is purely a paranoid egocentric, and narssistic point of view. My post was right on 100%.. Both plugs have issues, both plugs have vantages. I never endorsed either one of them, and pretty much stated that because of the whole mess, WE, The CONSUMERS are the ones getting screwed here.. But no... In your wacked out mind, Im some kinda manufacturers rep..

 

It seems to me that when faced with a product with KNOWN failure problems in the Motocraft two piece plugs vs a product with a "possible" failure problem in the Champion you go with the product that is least likely to fail.

I'm no SAE certified mechanic, but have always done a lot of my own work. I always gap plugs when installing them, because no matter which brand is used it seems like if you get 8 plugs half will have the wrong gap from the factory. Gaps can tighten in the packing, handling and shelving process for boxed plugs.

Why does this thread exist? Because people had major issues with the two piece plug. We have a single thread double linked where someone had an issue with Champion plugs. We have a TSB on Motocraft plugs.

There are a lot of variables with plugs, including gap, air-gas mixtures, etc. One thing is for sure, if the two piece plug is falling apart and falling into the cylinder the repairs are gonna be a lot more expensive than they would be just to replace the Champion plugs.

All of this stuff makes me glad I have a '99 F150 where the biggest issue with the 5.4 seems to be exhaust manifold bolts breaking.

 

Sound advice. Advice many of us here have been giving for a good while now.

 

Everyone is different, everyone has an opinion. I learned many years ago not to put Champions in my Mustangs and my Y block Fords. I guess the only way I could bring myself to use them now would be if Ford bought Federal Mogul. LOL I had no breakage with my original Motorcrafts at 65,500 and see no reason to expect a problem with my second set at around 90,000 miles.

The Motorcrafts run perfectly for close to 100,000, so the known failure you speak of I assume is only the removal process, which I have no problem with.

 

Mr. Allen, Ghostduck: I stated my opinion and it stands as such. There's no need for boneheaded controversy. What's needed is more positive reports from Joe consumer and it's not happening, not that I can see. You two sound like salesman pushing their product. Those spark plugs aren't cheap, the economy not the greatest, -Regardless, I take offense to Champion Spark Plugs politely being shoved down individuals throats since the fact continues to remain heavily on them not working out. It can be an expensive mistake let alone a major hassle.

I haven't heard of anyone having problems with replacement OEM Motorcraft spark plugs or Autolite plugs in the three valves. Today, this still remains to be what's best for everyone. Specially those who do not want to take chances.

That's my opinion and no, - I'm not kidding.

 

Hmm I guess the approaching 80,000 miles on my champions with no problems doesn't count as you don't know me. When the NGK Rep says puts in Champions... that says a lot. But you'd need a lawyer to authenticate that email too.

Whats the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over again, and expecting different results. Seems to apply with the two piece plugs issue.

 

Not sure how I am insane as none broke, so not repeating any bad experience expecting a different outcome. I expect the same outcome as before. All coming out in one piece. If they don't then there is a ready solution with the Lisle tool. There are far more that have had good success on this forum than those that haven't. The one's having a bad experience for the most part are those going to an independant mechanic that apparently does not know what he is dealing with or to a ripoff dealership. It pays to be an informed consumer whether you are dealing with brake, PCM, plugs or whatever issues. These are complicated vehicles in nearly every aspect.

Each person has to inform themselves and make their own educated choice whether that be going back with Motorcraft, changing to Champion or some other brand. It's good we have those options. What suits me is not right for you and viceversa. I have 102,000 on on truck right now. I put 700 miles on it this weekend and it runs and drives as good as it did when new.

 

Why did you change the plugs at 65K if they are good to 100K? And why will you change them again at 90K?

As for Champions, I would point out, Bluejay, that yesterday is not today and Y-blocks are long gone. Remember the old adage about Champions, "If they're black, they never come back." I suffered from that myself more than once 20-30 years ago. I learned from a very honest long-time Champion engineer that the rep was justly deserved. Then. Into the '80s, they had a bunch of stodgy engineers who were very conservative on heat ranges. They would rather have a plug foul than burn a piston, so they always ran 'em a little colder than they should have. And they fouled easily. Those guys finally attritted and more forward thinking guys came along with a, "Let's find the RIGHT heat range for the application" attitude. I got a pretty good overview of the qualification tests done when a set of spark plug is created It ain't no overnight deal. It's months of testing and usually an engine or few gets used up on the dyno before it ever gets put into a vehicle for road tests.

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if Ford and Autolite (who makes the Motorcrafts) had done enough testing to uncover their problems before foisting them off onto the public?

That trainer I talked about in my earlier post... know what he said the odds were for all eight plugs to come out in one piece? It's running 25:1 against right now in his unofficial poll. That's from both dealers and independent shops and assuming the tech does it right. The so-called techs who drag out the impacts and start rippin' and tearin', well, who knows what the odds are there. But obviously they don't care, or they would have found the knowledge to do it right in the first place. Part of the blame lies with them, too.

Anyway, I don't really care much what spark plug people put in their car or truck. Especially us gearheads. I might wonder about anyone who knows as much about these MC/Autolite problems as all you do putting the same junk back in, but my concern is for the non-gearheads. They are getting hosed the most in this deal.

Yeah, it looks like nobody else is going to walk in this minefield, so we have little hope for any of the other plug makers stepping in with another choice. Choice is always good.

PS- Being an informed consumer is a good thing, but expecting people to know and understand an arcane problem like this is asking too much. It's an obvious and correctable design problem that should never have been allowed to happen. The repair business is certainly not helping and that's why Federal Mogul needs to keep trainers on the road 300 days a year. You can almost forgive in independent shop for not knowing... not a dealership.

 

So what your saying is with my new Motorcraft plugs just installed 7 weeks ago and with the anti seize on them, I could still have a plug break issue in 50k miles using 87 octane gas like Esso or Shell?. I thought this was a one time issue for those that are taking factory plugs out on 04-08 5.4 3v's at the 50k and above mark. I also thought it was a supplier to Ford design flaw that was fixed a few years back. So the plug design has not changed, but the use of anti seize is what should help when these current new plugs gotta go?

 

I did not think that anything about my post indicated I thought the old engines were anything like the new ones. I was merely pointing out where my bias against Champions originated and mentioning that the bias was not likely to go away.

The reason I had them changed at 65,500 miles was because of doom posts such as yours along with the a few others and the poor souls that did have to have the heads removed caused me to get nervous. My dealer informed me that they had a very high success rate even with engines well over 100,000. My plugs came out without a proble and they said they could have gone much longer. My truck ran no differently with the new plugs nor did my mileage change. The 90,000 is just a number, I may very well go to 100,000. I do think it is important to use gas with a good detergent. I use Shell, Texaco or Conoco.

I don't understand your 25 to 1 against number. Are you saying that 25 have a breakage with one not? Surely not. My dealer has about one break every 5 or 6 vehicles and removing the broken one takes about 20 to 30 minutes extra. Hardly a disaster. I also find it a little strange that you preach so adamately against the Motorcrafts when all yours came out without breaking.

Yes, it is a very poor design. No, Ford did not do enough testing of the product before accepting it. However, I from a business aspect, I don't know what other decision I would have made differently had I been making it. I just really feel that too much is being made of it now that there is a high rate of success in removing them. What I really wish they would do, is put some pressure on their dealers to train their tech and all treat the customer the same rather than some dealers ripoff the customer.

There are other things about my truck that bother me far more than the plug issue. The sorry plastic in the cowl and bed rails that fades so quickly for one. I hated like hell to pay $325 for a plug change, and then got to thinking about how often I used to change plugs, points and condensors in my old cars and even doing them myself, it came up to close to the $325 over the same mileage.

The thing I really wish is that we could express our opinions and feelings without trying saying those with the opposite view are wrong. What is right for me is not right for you, that is obvious. There can be more than one right answer. One last thing, did I understand correctly that Federal Mogul and Champion paid you or sponsored you in some way? Maybe I misunderstood, but if so, I know if they did me, it would influence my thinking for sure.

 

Bluejay I like you and your posts, but the numbers you speak of in terms of how many are breaking... Well every Ford dealer and shop I've every talked to, would absolutely laugh at that.

Are guys getting them out with the tools etc... Yes. In the time you stated, no. Its more often than not a disaster. I don't like Champions either, but for me its the best available option. I'll leave it at that as we all have our own opinons and they are not likely to change!