4.6 to 5.4 or New heads?
 

Ok, so I have read a ton of information about swapping heads, or swapping motors from a 4.6 to a 5.4. I called Karkraft.com yesterday and was told the 5.4 motors they have on their web site will not fit in my 98 F150 Xcab 4X4.

My problem is I had the heads pulled back when I had 66k on the truck for an antifreeze leak. Ford had the truck for 27 days and eventually milled the heads and put new gaskets in. This was 3 years ago. I now have 118k miles and the right head is leaking massive amounts of oil. 1qt every 500 miles or so.

I have about $4k to invest in fixing the problem. I would really like to swap for a 5.4, but need some help in finding one that fits the 1998. Would also need some help identifying what other components I'd need to make the swap. I have no problem doing the work.

Other options I would consider would be to just swap the heads for some performance ones and not touch the bottom end. I am guessing the problem with my 4.6 is the heads and not the block, but don't know for sure. If I only swap the heads, I would also look into supercharging as I found one on: http://www.superchargeronline.com/superchargers.asp
Powerdyne for $2,500.

Guess what I really need is some references where to purchase the parts I need and any help in the best way to proceed. ANY advise would be great.

Thanks,
Steve

Since no one has replied to my post, I have an additional question. What would happen if I just install a set of 4.6 PI heads and don't change out the pistons? Would the higher compression ratio cause any problems for me. The only other mod I would do is add headers as I have read supercharging with only the PI heads is bad due to the high compression.

If I go with PI heads, can anyone recommend somewhere to purchase?

Thanks for any help.

What reason did they say it would not fit?
The 5.4 fits in any 97+ F-150 engine bay.

You might want to tell them its a F-150 not a 140. ;)

JMC

Steve,

I just called them. They are just a few miles across the border from me. The 5.4 will fit in your truck. Bonus, it has the complete wire harness to the firewall. All you will need is the motor mounts and PCM. Check my post in the other thread for the flywheel problems. If you don't want to spring for a PCM convert it to coil packs. This would be the easiest and cheapest.

Your truck should have sparkplug wires, the 5.4's have coil on plug. Individual coils on each spark plug. In order to run the coil on plug you would need the pcm for the 5.4, or you could use your pcm and run the two coils with the wires on the 5.4. In which case you would probably need to get a chip for it as the timing and fuel curves would be different. Also the cat converters would have to be modified as the 5.4 is wider and taller than the 4.6. The motor mounts are the same for both engines. Depending on whether your 4.6 is a windsor or romeo, it should be a windsor as most '98's came with windsors, the flywheel should be the same.
If you put the PI heads on your engine, you will also need the intake manifold as the ports are different there also.:)

i like the way you are think about making the most out of a bad situation.
might want to consider getting a bid from one of the professional head porter on exchanging you heads for the same year model that have been ported with a new valve job (most inexpensive way) plus you have no reson to keep your existing heads. with that milege i might consider new timing chains. no reason that if the motor has had good maitenace that the short block should not see 200,000 miles.
i might consider mustang cams but after market billet cams are $400 to $600 (more for custom profiles) plus new gears (2) at around 70 a peice.

below is the spec for the ford performance heads (for a mustang and i dont know how different it is for a truck.

4.6L GT Cylinder Heads
4.6L GT Cylinder Head (each)
$850.00

Direct replacement heads add 35HP instantly and up to 70HP with Ford Racing's intake manifold!

Direct replacement for stock 96-98 4.6L heads.
Will fit 99 when used with Ford Racing Intake Manifold.
Accepts production or SVO intake and exhaust manifolds
46.83mm intake valve diameters
(improves airflow 27% over stock)
35.88mm exhaust valve diameters
(improves airflow 44% over stock)
320-T6 aluminum casting
Perfect for Hi-lift cams, larger springs and
custom porting & polishing

This is great info.

One thing that you need to do if you redo the heads is to check the block carefully. It may be the cause of the leaks. For the amount of money you want to spend you may just get an exchange engine with 36K warranty too.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Mike

The only problem with running Mustang cams is that the profile is set for a lighter car, less low end torque. Low end torque is what a truck needs. True, you will probably gain a couple of hp on the top end, but you will sacrifice bottom end. In my book this is not the way to go. Spend the extra bucks and get some custom cams that are ground for a truck. More on the bottom end for get up and go. Just my :2cents

i dont know how much higher in the rpm the mustang makes its power, but the cam are only half of that, the trucks intake manifold with its long runners is responsible for some of the low end, so changing the heads and cams while retaining the stock intake is probably going to split the differance.
i think mustang cams because they would be a lot more affordable than aftermarket cams and the cam gears that can be from $550 to $750 (gears and cams). they might make them but i have not seen anyone develop cams for improved lowend (truck) application. a custom grind would be at least another $100 with no guarantee of a cam that peforms like you want.
if you did the heads with the mustang cams and the low end sufffered, there is alway the option of 4.10's. it is just my opion but the stock intake manifold is never going to allow you to make big numbers high in the rpm without a power adder. it is difficult to make big changes in power out put with out moving the rpm levels (the new 3v 5.4 makes more hp and tq but the peak output is higher in the rpms).
most aftermarket parts make the "10 hp gain" in the 4000 to 5000 range.

the big problem with all this is that we just wont know until someone does it. i havent seen any build ups involving the changes we are taling about on a truck. cosidering the cost of cams, heads, custom tune, and everything else that goes with it, it is not an attractive option to most. until you see dyno runs showing before and after, its all bench racing, which is about all the racing most of us have time and money for.

Thanks for the info.
 

First off, I fat fingered when I typed F140....:p I was typing with a broken finger. When I talked to karkraft I don't think I had a tech on the phone, and was not sure I was getting good info. from them.

Thanks JMC for making the call to karkraft. I appreciate that...:)
I feel a little more informed now. I plan on pulling the motor this weekend and will start making some hard core decisions once I have it out.

Thanks svt_sc_f150 and BROTHERDAVE for the other information on the heads and coil packs. This helps a lot!!!

What advantage would there be to swithcing the PCM versus changing to coil packs?

Once again, thanks for the great info. and I will let you all know what I do and how it's going.

Steve

Getting a 5.4 PCM will have all the correct calibrations. Switching to Coil packs will require a custom chip to recalibrate the PCM from a 4.6 to a 5.4. There is also the MAF. The one on your present engine is calibrated for 4.6L displacement. The 5.4 will require a different MAF.

JMC

JMC, i dont doubt you, but i have not heard of a maf being calibrated for a specific cubic inch, the only calibaration i have ever heard of was for a injector size and the both engines use the same one.

The early 4.6's, '97,'98, and early '99's had two coil packs with spark plug wires. All of the 5.4's had coil on plug. The pcm's are different due to the ignition system. The 5.4's have different hardware to trigger the coils on the plugs. Thus if you want to run a 5.4 with the 2 coils and plug wires, then you can stick with the 4.6 pcm. The maf does not have to be changed as both engines have the same maf and the same throttle body size. I cannot gurantee that the pcm will be able to adjust for the extra cubic inches, but it should. You would have to dyno it and see how the a/f ratio is. But theoreticaly, it should just swap in with just a modification to the exhaust.

When I shortened the sample tube on my MAF I tried neal's MAF on my truck and it set a code. At the time both of us were using stock injectors. Also The part numbers on the MAFs were different.

But hold that thought. I will check my notes and get back. Better safe than sorry.


JMC

Swap to 5.4
 

I think I have narrowed the decision down to two options.


1. Go with the 5.4 from Karkraft as it is a new motor with a warranty. I have located a flywheel (8) bolt as mine is a Romeo (6) bolt for $35. I'm checking to see if I can get a PCM from the same salvage yard as the flywheel and as well the motor mounts.

2. Found a 2001 F-150 wrecked with a 4.6 and only 11K miles. I can pick up the long block for $1,250. This would already have the PI heads so would gain power from that. Would also leave me money to purchase headers and a chip. Could even consider supercharging with that low mileage. Powerdyne has a supercharger kit for $2,500.

My only other option is looking for a rebuilt 4.6, but I am a little leary of that as I would not know the condition of the heads, block and gaskets used, so could end up with a leaker again.

If I go with the 5.4 from Karkraft, I will try to order by the end of this week. I need to get this project going as the weather here in Iowa is turning cold.

Thanks for all the help and let me know what you all think of my options above.

Steve

I would go with the 5.4. You said it comes with the wiring harness and all the coils on the plugs right? Then you would just need to get a pcm, the flywheel, and get the exhaust altered to fit. The motor mounts are the same. You do not need to change them. Just use your mounts. I have done these swaps on friends trucks and my own. Except on mine I swaped in the complete drivetrain out of a Lightning. The 5.4 does not compare to the 4.6 as far as power goes, and I am not comparing with the Lightning engine. I work for Ford and I drive these trucks every day. I know what the difference is in the two. The 5.4 has alot more torque. Belive me you can feel a big difference in the two. As far as the pcm goes, they're only a couple hundred bucks from the dealer, and you could just give them your old one as a core. That's my 2 cents.:beers:

Ok, so I ordered the 5.4 from Kar Kraft. I can get the flywheel locally. Is there anywhere on-line to get the PCM?

I should have the motor by next Friday. Will begin pulling the 4.6 out this weekend. What's involved in changing the PCM. Any info. on that would be helpful.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,

Try Mike Troyer for the PCM. As far as removing it; Look behind the battery on the firewall. There is a gray 102 pin connector held on with a 10 mm nut. Loosen nut and remove the connector. Then go inside the cab and remove the passenger side kick panel and look up under the dash. There is a black clip holding the PCM im place. Remove the clip and pull towards the rear and down on the PMC to remove it.

JMC

Thanks JMC! I just FedExed the check for the motor!!! Also sent an e-mail to Mike Troyer to see about the PCM. Will let you know next week what the motor looks like and keep you posted as to the progress.

:beers: :bows:

Again, thanks to JMC and svt_sc_f150 for all your assistance. Please stay tuned as I may have more questions as I get this project rolling.

Steve

:rocker:

I read that you had already purchased an engine, but I'm going to run this by everyone. When the time comes for my 5.4 to go I was thinking about droping a 32v intech out of one of the navs. then maybe a procharger, KB. or posibly a turbo kit. I just want to do something fun with it instead of just trading it back in.

once its paid for and out of warranty the skies the limit.

There is no need to remove the kick panel. You will have to get the PATS module reprogrammed when you install the new PCM.

I hate jumping in here at the last min but if you change the computer to one that is compatible with the coil on plugs, then you are going to run into a lot more problems then you think. There are several other things that are different on the 99 and later vehicles as apposed to the early 97-98. The entire speedometer cluster will have to be changed for one. Also, the early f-150's did not have a PATS system so there is no way to get a reading to the computer, no reading, no start.
You are probably better off getting a computer from a 98 that had the 5.4 and changing to plug wires and coil packs using your existing wiring harness. You will probably still need a Superchip to adjust for the PI heads but everything else should work fine.
Either way, good luck and keep us informed...

All 5.4 engines have COP ignitions. The PCM from a 99 can be found without PATS and it is calibrated for the PI heads.

JMC

WLF, Thanks for the updated info. I will look into a used PCM from a 98 with the 5.4. Will then go to Troyer for the cuip. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks,
Steve

I think I already mentioned that he would have to stick with a '97 or '98 pcm with 5.4. And once the pcm is installed, you will have to have your keys programmed into the pcm, I said pats module in my earlier post. What I meant was the pats keys would need to be reprogrammed. Sorry for any confusion.

Neal's 99 5.4 has the Pi heads and no PATS system. So if you get the PCM from a 99 you can get the enhanced programming for the PI heads and not need to do anything about the keys.

JMC

HI!... I have the PATS system on my truck but just for the keys. I don't have the key fobs.

OOPS,

My bad, Thought you didn't have the PATS.

JMC

JMC,
He needs to stick with the '97 or '98 pcm. Otherwise he will have to change all the wiring harnesses, the instrument cluster, all the modules, etc. etc.

svt,
So its back to the 2 first choices; a 98 5.4 PCM or convert the COP to coil pack ignition. Which would you do?

JMC

If anyone is interested. I have a brand new 2004 5.4L with the auto transmission still attached. The engine is complete with wiring harness, accessories (alt, belt, A/C, ..), exhaust manifolds, and fan. This was removed from a brand new unwrecked F-series.
Package has less than 200 miles on it.
Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin,

Is that the new 3 valve 5.4 with a 4R75W tranny?

JMC

JMC,
Yes, you are correct. New 5.4L 3 valve with 4R75W transmission. They are still coupled together. Flywheel, starter all included, also. Might have computer.
Kevin

Actually I have just finished reviewing the pinouts for the 4.6 and the 5.4 pcm's for the '98 model. It appears that the 4.6 pcm will have to be used. The pinouts for the trans are different. So just run the 2 coil packs with the sparkplug wires.
As for the engine from the '04. You will need every wiring harness and module from the '04, also you will have to add 4 wheel abs, the dash will have to be changed so you can put in the instrument cluster from the '04, see where this is going? Good luck to anyone trying that swap.

i would go with that 4.6 from that wrecked truck. might not even be a bad idea if you really want a 5.4 to look for a wrecked truck with the 5.4. the money you save would make a lot of sense.:rocker:

Here is what Mike Troyer came up with.

He told me to get the PCM from a 98 with the 5.4 which he said I could get from any dealer, just don't pay over $299 for it. He said some dealers try to gouge on the price.

Next SuperChips is coming out with a new MicroTuner which he is getting trained on the software for next week. He said it should be available by the 15th of Oct. This is not the Max Tuner, it is a new tuner. He can custom tune to the new 5.4 to maximize for the PI heads.

The PCM from a 98 5.4 will match my transmission and I won't have to deal with PATS. I will be able to use the COP instead of the Coil Packs so won't have to change the harness. Mike also said to make sure the PCM is for the 4R70W transmission as that is what I have.

Mike didn't have a price on the new tuner yet, so will hope it isn't too expensive. He did say the truck will fire and run fine with the PCM from the 98 5.4, but will not be taking advantage of the PI heads so I will want to custom tune for that. The new MicroTuner will just flash the PCM and he recommended it over a Flip Chip.

The new motor shipped on Friday, so hope it will be here by the end of the week. I will look at the harness and check into the PCM once I have it. Worst case, will stay with Coil Packs instead of COP and get the MicroTuner. I will update as I get started with the swap.

Thanks again for all the useful info.
Steve

I don't want to contradict what Mike is telling you, but I am almost 99% sure that in '97 and '98 the 5.4 was not offered with the 4R70W. Being the weekend I cannot research it completely. But I cannot find a pinout diagram for a '97 or '98 5.4 with the 4R70W. The only way to really find out for sure is to ask my parts guy on Monday. I'll check on price for you and see how much I can get it for at my cost. I'll let you know.

HI!... Ford has always offered the 4R70-W tranny from "97" to current with the F-150's. 4.6 or 5.4. That was the tranny that FORD used in 90% of the auto applications.

Hi Neal,
I didn't say that the 4R70W wasn't offered, just that it wasn't offered with the 5.4, but I will find out for sure tommorrow.

Thanks SVT and Neil! I appreciate the help. SVT, let me know what you can get the PCM for. That would be great if you can help me out with a better price.

Steve