Hey Mike I haven't talked to you or posted much the last couple months but I was gonna ask you a couple questions. First of all I had told you a few months ago that I was gonna call you and get the power pulley's, well now I'm pretty sure I'm getting either a Procharger or Magnacharger (still debating) somewhere around the end of the summer after I save up enough money. So now I'm just saving and not doing anything until I can see if I can get the supercharger. I will have to get a reburn for my Superchip right? I was wondering if I can get the extra firm shifts burned as well? And how much difference is there in a Superchips firm shift and a shift kit? I guess that will do it for now, thanks!

 

Hi Harleyboy,

Nice to see you back again, glad you dropped by!

With regard to choosing between a Magnacharger or the ATI Procharger, hands down the Magnacharger does a much better job for these heavy trucks. The Magnacharger produces instant torque gains the second you touch the gas pedal, versus the ATI where you'll have to wait for the boost to come up until you reach higher rpms.

We have tuned a large number of these F-150's for just about every type of supercharger out there, all the various Roots-type and centrifugal superchargers, from ATI to Vortech to Powerdyne to Whipple to the Magnacharger and on and on........... Hands down, the Roots-type blower like the Eaton supercharger used by Ford, Jaguar, General Motors and in the Magnacharger is a much better match in these heavy 2-ton+ trucks. With the Magnacharger, more torque is always available right *now*, just as soon as you touch the gas pedal, just what these heavy trucks need, whether it's for the street, drag strip, towing, or whatever.

Either supercharger will certainly work, if it were my truck it would be wearing the Magnacharger. These trucks need more torque on tap *all* the time, at any rpm, and that takes a positive-displacement blower like the Magnacharger to do that.

OK, enough of our opinions and on to answering your question!

Yes, the Superchip will need to be reprogrammed for any supercharger, and we can take care of that for you, just give us a shout. And yes, we can firm the shifts more, but we don't recommend making the transmission shift *hard* in that manner. If you want to get a nice chirp of the tires on the 1-2 upshift consistently when you nail it, that should be done with the Superchip *and* a good shift kit, like the Transgo kit.

We can go over all of that in detail when you give us a call, of course. In the meantime, good luck saving those pennies, keep at it & you'll have that supercharger before too long!

 

Answered all my questions, well for now anyways And definetly didn't mind your opinions. I like how the Magnacharger has the instant power like you said and still debating but will hopefully be able to get one. I can't wait til the day comes when I'm calling you saying that I need a reburn of my chip for my new SUPERCHARGER! Once again thanks Mike for the instant info!

 

Hi Harleyboy,

You're very welcome, anytime.

And on the blowers, in reading back over my response, I should have pointed out, to be fair, that the ATI is indeed a fine supercharger; it is good quality and certainly capable of very high boost levels & big power, if you have an engine with a fully built lower end to really take advantage of it. The ATI blower kit for these F-150's can certainly make as much peak power gain as the Magnacharger kit for the F-150, and more if the motor is built for it.

It's all a matter of available torque at any throttle position, and that is an issue that is fairly unique to heavier vehicles, especially trucks with their huge profile. And having more available torque all the time requires a positive displacement blower of some kind. You already know all that of course, but for others reading that response, it could have sounded a bit one-sided, and that was unintentional. ATI makes a great blower, we recommend centrifugal blowers, including the ATI, be used on lighter vehicles, like Mustangs, Camaro's, etc. A lot of Mustang owners are going with the ATI, and it's an excellent choice in a 3400-3600 lb. car where instant torque isn't nearly as much of an issue.

My rambling, foot-in-mouth mode is off now, & best of luck whatever you decide. We'll just be happy for you to see you get your blower!

 

Mike I see you like the magna for the trucks, however the ATI will win hands down everytime. I have run the ATI against Magna on every app and have won. I even ran a 2002 harley SCREW and won. The magna is a good blower for pulling or for 4-WD but as far as performance the ATI can not be surpassed.

 

Ok, Skid right when I think I've made up my mind you come in and make me think about it some more. I know it's gonna be a few more months (hopefully) but everyday the question goes through my head "Procharger or Magnacharger?" I want a Supercharger for 2 reasons: performance and a stronger throttle response. I guess the question still remains! One more question, on evenly mathched trucks with the Procharger and the Magna how much time difference is there on the track in the 1000'? The answer to this could help me make my decision!

 

On exact trucks: Truck A: Magna Truck B: ATI

Truck A: has very crisp throttle response, tons of torque, Great as a 4x4 or a pulling truck.

Truck B: has very crisp throllte response, tons of torque, Great for Street performance and towing.

Racing A and B

The B truck will pull the A truck off of the line and pull steady over the powerband.

The ATI will give boost just off idle and produce more as it spins up. It is a linear boost which gives maximum traction and steady pull.

Performance: Stock trucks with out of the box bolt on

A: 270Hp at the rear tires
B: 350Hp at the rear tires

Bring them up to equal (the magna has 5-6psi)
Both at 9psi

A: 310 (If tunned correctly) 300 if out of box 9psi
B: 350 (still out of box tune)

Side by side comparison. I ran a 2002 Harley (the one with the lightning motor)

We left the line at the same time and pulled pretty even until3 grand and I started away from him. With every shift I pulled about a length. He ran a 14.8 with my 14.4. Plus I had him by about 8 mph as well. This same harley spun up at 340HP at the rear tires. So with that, the magna at 300; I will be out on him about 3 to 4 lengths (easy).

We have a highly modded single cab with the magna running 14.4's and I am in a SCREW.

The Magna is a great blower which is why we offer it along with the ATI. We basically took (what we feel) the best of each style blower and offer them to the public. I do not want to offer a piece of crap just because it has a high margin or a good name labeled on it. No I am not calling all the other brands crap just that the ATI and the Magna are the best quality for the money spent.

 

Well first you confused me again but now I think you have actually for sure made up my mind! Are you sayin that there is an 80 hp difference in the Magna and the ATI stock out of the box? With this comparison I think I'm set for the ATI. I also just found the September '01 issue of Sport Truck and it has the article "Supercharged, Intercooled, and Ready For Action," where they put an ATI on an '00 Harley and gave it GREAT reviews! On the dyno the ATI gave it 141 hp and 157 lb.ft. torque and it said that the numbers would have been even higher but the top-speed limiter shut'em down! I guess the only thing that was pulling me toward the Magna was the idea of Instant throttle response. Oh yeah I was gonna ask you another question, what else has been done to your truck other than the out-of-the-box Procharger that allowed you to run 14.4's in that heavy SCREW? Thanks again Skid for the comparison that really gives me an idea of what I want!

 

On my truck I am running the ATI with our intake mod, the engine is all stock, Gibson exhaust (quiet), Baumann shift kit, chip with custom code.

We have others who are running 14.4 with the out of the box tune with the intake mod in SCREW's as well. The other mods like exhaust and tranny are for sound and longevity.

 

Hi Skid (& Harleyboy too!),

Thanks for your comments and observations Skid.

As you & Crash know, we have been doing this for a long time, we've specialized in computer controlled F-truck performance for longer than most companies. We have literally hundreds upon hundreds of supercharged F-150 customers that we have been tuning for years, including most of your customer's trucks that have superchargers. We market both types of superchargers as well, providing different solutions for different needs, just as you appropriately commented.

There isn't any 80 horsepower difference, or 70 horsepower difference between either the standard ATI and Magnacharger kits for these F-150's that we have ever seen or that any of our customers has ever experienced, either at their respective stock boost levels or with both blowers making 9 PSI, to answer Harleyboy.

You can't take 2 identical F-150's, both with the same transmission, bolt the Magnacharger on one and the ATI on the other, at their respective stock boost levels in their kits for the F-150, and have one deliver 270 to the wheels and the other deliver 350 to the wheels, a difference of 70 rear wheel horsepower. I think you might have an error in those numbers, whether it's due to dyno error or whatever, and I'll explain a bit.............

Assuming we have say, a stock 5.4 automatic F-150, that would mean the Magnacharger delivered "only" an 80 horsepower gain at the flywheel (260 SAE Net flywheel stock +80 = 340 flywheel HP, minus -70 hp driveline loss = 270 rear wheel HP), while the ATI would have to have delivered at least *TWICE* that much power gain, a 160 horsepower gain right out of the box, at 9 PSI, and that does not happen. There is no way that the standard ATI kit for the F-150, which delivers 8-9 PSI boost (9 PSI @ 5400 rpm) delivers a 160 horsepower gain. None of our customers have seen that from their ATI's, and none of your own customer's who sent us their dyno plots & A/F ratio numbers for their custom tuning that we provided showed those kinds of gains, even on a Dynojet.

If we applied those same rear wheel power differences you listed to manual-transmission F-150's, which have about half the driveline losses that automatics do (and which would have to be 4.6's for the V-8 with a manual tranny in an F-150), that would mean the Magnacharger would have given a 90 hp flywheel gain (220 stock +90 = 310 flywheel hp, minus 30-35 hp for driveline loss = about 270 real wheel), while the ATI would have to deliver, once again, about *TWICE* as much power gain, a 160-165 horsepower gain (220 stock + 165 = 385 hp, minus 30-35 hp driveline loss = about 350 rear wheel horsepower), which significantly exceeds even ATI's claims.

As we can quickly see, those numbers just don't add up, something is off there. The driveline losses are very well known, as are the stock power levels, and though there are the typical small produciton line variances, nothing that could cause a difference of 70 rear wheel horsepower like that.

The ATI delivers about 9 PSI observed @ 5400 rpm in the F-150, versus the 6-6.5 PSI @ 5400 rpm of the Magnacharger in their respective F-150 kits. And at stock boost levels for each kit, sure, the ATI will make a bit more peak horsepower, especially in the 4000+ rpm range. All else being equal, we see about a 22-25 horsepower difference on a good eddy-current chassis dyno, with the Magnacharger gaining about 80-85 horsepower at it's stock boost level, and the ATI gaining about 100-105 HP. The Magnacharger is well ahead in torque production however, at virtually any throttle position below 2800 rpm or so, and then the ATI goes ahead in horsepower gained as the rpms rise, of course.

Another thing we see with the ATI is that it needs tuning like any other supercharger does. Virtually all supercharger manufacturers tell you that their kit needs no chip, that they can be run on the stock factory program since they use an FMU/FRU to boost rail pressure, and that is somewhat accurate, though you will never get best power or driveability like that. The ATI tends to show a bit lean from about 2700 rpm to about 3400-3700 rpm with the FMU set up as recommended, showing A/F's of high 13's to 1 just in that area. Taking it 2 clicks richer takes care of that, but then the rest of the fuel curve is too rich, so we have to correct that, and then the power curve looks nice all the way thru. All superchargers have their quirks & specific tuning characteristics of course.

Most F-150 owners want a blower that will give them the best driveability on the street, when towing as well as when cruising and when nailing the throttle for fun, etc. They need the ability to have maximum available torque all the time, at *any* rpm, at *any* throttle position, and that's where the Magnacharger shines. Hands down, a positive displacement blower gives a better result for those specific parameters, and this is something rather unique to these heavy vehicles, this concern for producing lower rpm torque, and the ability to produce significantly more torque instantly at any throttle position or rpm. This is why we recommend the Magnacharger for most F-150 applications.

For those who want to make big horsepower numbers and are not as concerned with lower-rpm torque production, certainly the centrifugal design has it's advantages, which is why we see so many of them on the drag strip in lower-powered (below 1000 or so HP) classes. ATI superchargers in particular have been makign a good showing, kicking major-league butt on drag strips all over the country the past couple of years, to be sure.

Which supercharger can ultimately make more peak horsepower if the engine is built to take it and live long-term?
The ATI, as it can easily make higher boost levels, and at those higher boost levels and particularly at higher rpms, it's efficiency begins to overtake and exceed the Magnacharger.

Which supercharger makes a better *street* vehicle in these F-150's? The Magnacharger, especially for the automatic transmission models. It's instant torque availabilty is a significant advantage below 3000 rpm, and it's boost level can also be very easily raised. I have personally run the much older second-generation M90 Eaton supercharger at a peak of 17 PSI boost, for 70K+ miles on the street. Today's Magnacharger is based on the much newer 4th-generation Eaton M90 supercharger, and so takes very little power to turn when not producing positive boost, such as when cruising.

If you're looking for best torque at any throttle position, the Magnacharger is the way to go, as it has a significant advantage in making more torque below 3000 rpm or so.

If you're looking for the biggest horsepower numbers and low rpm torque is not as important to you, then the ATI is an excellent choice, and will make just about anyone looking for big horsepower *very* happy. We have tuned a number of Crash & Skid's customer trucks who have the ATI supercharger, and I can tell you that they are all very happy with their performance.

The bottom line is, both the ATI and the Magnacharger are excellent superchargers, with various strengths in differing areas, so it's important to match the type of supercharger to what each customer feels is most important for *their* uses.

Thanks for your post, Skid!

 

Mike,

I agree with your discription on the different blowers, but my numbers are not off by much. I have spun several 5.4 trucks up on the dyno with the ATI (no chip) with the intake mod and ranged from 345HP to 354HP at the rear wheels. My personal truck spun up at 350.3 HP with 402.8 torque. The magna's where ranging from 275HP to 290HP. Granted they where all spun on different trucks at different times of the year the numbers stay pretty consistant. I agree the Magna is an exeptional blower which is why we put it on alot of trucks, especially the 4x4's, but for performance the ATI exceeds the magna and has much more tuning and upgrades. I know you have experimented with both just like we have, and you have helped us tune alot of ours. For an all around blower and bottom end punch the magna is a kick in the pants, but when you are racing how long are you at low RPM. even on the freeway when I pass the truck drops a gear and is boosting like crazy. I have also spun a magna 9psi on the dyno and it was puttin down 320 on the rear tires. Myself and crash! have run side by side with the magna and ATI, from launch I took him, from 30 punch I took him, from 60 punch I took him. Now hook a 5000 pound trailer up to our trucks and I will be staring at the but of his for days.


I am not doubting what you are stating its just I have been tuning for along time as well and have always had better numbers etc. with the ATI. Granted low RPM applications a positive displacement blower is the best choice, but we are not building low RPM drag motors.

As a mater of fact I am about to aquire an Expedition and will be putting on the Magna. I feel it is a better blower for that heavy brick.

People even question the fact that 9psi on the Magna does not produce as much HP as the ATI, I try to explain boost is not boost. Hell 9 psi out of a T3 and an air to air cooler would yield even more HP than the ATI. I have a hard time explaining how heat kills the motor and the ATI's key feature is the innercooler which is why they can run higher boost and claim a 60 percent increase.

I will be glad to send you my dyno numbers for you to have a peek at. I also agree that the ATI FMU is a pain in the tail. This is why we leave most of them closed. This is why we are working on a solid solution to pull the FMU out of the loop and do the tuning via the CHIP.

And as a note to all who read this: Tuners have always disagreed on how to make power and what steps to take in order to get there. This is why we have racing and all of the different options such as alternative fuels, NOS, and different style blowers. This is why it is very important to get the views of the different tuners and see where their performance gains are and at what cost. Look at the proven real world numbers and do alot of research and ask alot of questions. You have to decide what method you like the best and run with it.

For me I can make a NOS motor out-run any boost motor on the planet. The only problem is that it is not practical and that is what most people want. This is the very reason why people such as mike and myself choose boost.

 

HI!... I choose N/A!lol! And I'm beating most of the supercharged trucks (non lightning) and keeping up with the rest!LOL! I have also chosen the MAGNACHARGER for my truck when I get as far as I can go with still being N/A. Mike and I are currently working on PROJECT 13 SECOND N/A. Hopefully by the end of MAY I will be able to get to the dragstrip and prove this. I hav'nt been since last OCT and hav'nt done anything to my truck since then until the last few days. With my fuel prblem almost been solved we should have some really fast times ahead. Now...... can't we all just get along!LOL!

 

Neal. I cannot wait to see your truck drop a 13 with no blower. That will be totally cool. as far as getting along the best quote is "rubbin is racin" hehehe.

No problems here. Mike makes some very fast cars and trucks, and I totally respect his views. The differences we have are what started people racing in the first place. Nuthin but love in the room tonight.


P.S. my dad can beat up your dad....hahahahaha

 

HI!... SKID : I thought you'd get a kick out of my post. Everything is cool until you guys start saying your CHEVY and DODGES are faster than our FORD's.!LOL!

 

superchips I see you offer the magna charger. I found it for 3500 on this web site http://www.trixters-playground.com/46l.htm can you beat that price? I totally want a blower and am trying to get the best deal possible to save money for other mods. I also heard something about pulleys. can you help with that.