Catch cans
#1
12-10-2014, 07:58 PM
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#2
12-26-2014, 11:39 AM
You only need one can, feel free to message us with any questions regardless of where you purchased your system. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261683784737...84.m1555.l2649 these instructions should help.
#3
01-01-2015, 09:24 AM
#4
01-01-2015, 10:16 AM
Senior Member
Crash I still say you have no idea what you are talking about. The Whipple nor the Saleen nor the Roush kit are plumbed in a manner that the the crankcase, or PCV valve could ever be exposed to boost. This check valve would do nothing for preventing vapors from entering the manifold when vacuum is applied to the lines under normal driving boosted or stock. Those vapors contain oil which over time collects on the intercooler and reduces it's efficiency .
#5
01-01-2015, 06:28 PM
#6
01-02-2015, 12:26 PM
Well, never done this before, but I once, many years ago was a professional mechanic, did that for 10 plus years before my career took a different direction. However, I did not own a four wheeled vehicle until my late 20's, as I did small engine work. So I have an interest in engines, thus the questions.
From what I can see, the simple check valve approach would work on some systems but would have less of an affect on other systems such as the roots type of forced induction.
From what I can see, the simple check valve approach would work on some systems but would have less of an affect on other systems such as the roots type of forced induction.
Last edited by MeanGene; 01-02-2015 at 08:14 PM.
#7
01-03-2015, 04:52 PM
Crash, It seems like part of my confusion within this thread is your experience with many different types of motors. How about we use something that I can visualize. For me that would be the 5.4L 3V engine.
Also, there is a lot of misinformation out on the web adding to my confusion on this topic.
My 2004 has the fresh CC air being drawn in from the right or passenger side of the valve cover. The left or drivers side has the hose leading to the PCV pipe/heater/valve coming out of that valve cover and bolting to the intake manifold. The 2004 must have it mounted differently as after 100K I took off the TB to do the recommended cleaning and it looked like brand new with a slight ring where the throttle plate sits at idle.
I was thinking that a ProCharger or turbo would be pushing air through the intake and possibly pressurizing the PCV while the roots/lysholm type is pulling air through the intake and pressurizing after the PCV.
Someone could read that as boost going through the PCV valve which should not happen unless it is not working, I mean one of the PCV valves primary jobs is to prevent a back fire from getting to the CC.
This is just my thinking out loud, so to speak.
I think, and correct me if I am wrong, The general thought out in the world is that the PCV valve is closed and vacuum opens it up so that it can draw the CC gases out. At first glance that would make sense, but after further research I found it not to be entirely correct.
From what I have seen on-line regarding the typical PCV valve is that it works in such a way to allow venting of CC gases to the intake without causing a lean condition. It does this by reducing the flow through the PCV at idle when there is not a lot of A/F flow in which the CC gases could adversely affect the A/F ratio. Under running conditions where flow is greater the passage to the CC is mostly open as the volume of CC gases will have little effect on the A/F ratio. Basically a controlled vacuum leak (ha ha). So vacuum is needed to reduce flow from the CC at idle and pull unwanted CC gases out depending on the pressure differential. At higher running speeds it can be open and extracting any gasses that happen to get past the rings/guides and into the CC again depending on the pressure differential.
If there is boost pressure in the intake I would assume it would cause a similar condition as a backfire and the PCV value would be closed under boost pressure and cause the potential issues that have been mentioned. That is probably what you meant by "slamming the PCV valve closed under boost."
So now that I have that straight, I think. Some Questions
Adding the check valve is adding an additional line somewhere that connects the CC with a negative pressure source through the check valve, that right?
Does the check valve require tuning?
Does the check valve replace or supplement the PCV system?
Is the check valve making the CC into a temporary vacuum chamber?
Also, there is a lot of misinformation out on the web adding to my confusion on this topic.
It makes no difference what type or brand. Please realize the 3/8" PCV port at the back of the TB adapter will see manifold pressure, no matter what blower you use. This means CC pressure is ABOVE normally aspirated amounts of BLOWBY, so I eliminate this problem, and leave the driver valve cover connected to the inlet and block the PCV so I CAN use the inlet like a vacuum pump. Our engines, with the serpentine belt does not lend itself to the use of a vacuum pump.
Someone could read that as boost going through the PCV valve which should not happen unless it is not working, I mean one of the PCV valves primary jobs is to prevent a back fire from getting to the CC.
And as I said before, once a gauge is installed and shows a positive pressure under boost, there is no need to do anything but control the CC pressure. It needs to be NEGATIVE to both evacuate blowby gases and to HELP promote ring seal, to HELP stopping the blowby in the first place.
And this is an issue I found on the Magnacharger. Senior and Founding members remember I used to be a DIE HARD positive displacement fanatic. Then I got spanked by a ProCharger. In my experience, the ProCharger pulls a higher NEGATIVE pressure on the inlet, so I use that to evacuate the CC under WOT, and the PCV valve operates normally at cruise or tip in.
The sad part is, some say this is negligible. I disagree. Even if it was, the pressure differential between the valve covers allows air flow and that means picking up oil along the way.
So again, do you want to solve the problem or catch part of the symptom, only to empty it and return the oil to the CC? If you want to... But I have seen, from the beginning, that oil control IS a real issue.
I do know JDM has excellent success with a Moroso vacuum pump, however, this will not work if the CC is not sealed to the atmosphere.
And this is an issue I found on the Magnacharger. Senior and Founding members remember I used to be a DIE HARD positive displacement fanatic. Then I got spanked by a ProCharger. In my experience, the ProCharger pulls a higher NEGATIVE pressure on the inlet, so I use that to evacuate the CC under WOT, and the PCV valve operates normally at cruise or tip in.
The sad part is, some say this is negligible. I disagree. Even if it was, the pressure differential between the valve covers allows air flow and that means picking up oil along the way.
So again, do you want to solve the problem or catch part of the symptom, only to empty it and return the oil to the CC? If you want to... But I have seen, from the beginning, that oil control IS a real issue.
I do know JDM has excellent success with a Moroso vacuum pump, however, this will not work if the CC is not sealed to the atmosphere.
I think, and correct me if I am wrong, The general thought out in the world is that the PCV valve is closed and vacuum opens it up so that it can draw the CC gases out. At first glance that would make sense, but after further research I found it not to be entirely correct.
From what I have seen on-line regarding the typical PCV valve is that it works in such a way to allow venting of CC gases to the intake without causing a lean condition. It does this by reducing the flow through the PCV at idle when there is not a lot of A/F flow in which the CC gases could adversely affect the A/F ratio. Under running conditions where flow is greater the passage to the CC is mostly open as the volume of CC gases will have little effect on the A/F ratio. Basically a controlled vacuum leak (ha ha). So vacuum is needed to reduce flow from the CC at idle and pull unwanted CC gases out depending on the pressure differential. At higher running speeds it can be open and extracting any gasses that happen to get past the rings/guides and into the CC again depending on the pressure differential.
If there is boost pressure in the intake I would assume it would cause a similar condition as a backfire and the PCV value would be closed under boost pressure and cause the potential issues that have been mentioned. That is probably what you meant by "slamming the PCV valve closed under boost."
So now that I have that straight, I think. Some Questions
Adding the check valve is adding an additional line somewhere that connects the CC with a negative pressure source through the check valve, that right?
Does the check valve require tuning?
Does the check valve replace or supplement the PCV system?
Is the check valve making the CC into a temporary vacuum chamber?
Last edited by MeanGene; 01-04-2015 at 02:02 PM. Reason: Corrected reason for vacuum needed at idle
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#8
01-05-2015, 10:03 AM
Senior Member
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Last edited by JackandJanet; 01-06-2015 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Cleaned Up Trash Talk
#10
01-05-2015, 01:10 PM
Senior Member
#12
01-06-2015, 10:18 AM
Senior Member
Heh. Exactly. But Laurence, the other one I am working with owns a Roush. He calls MULTIPLE TIMES for "Expert supercharger advice?". Not MY words. His. I suggest a $3 check valve and we were to move on to the vacuum leak he asked me to diagnose by PHONE. Then not only did we have a valid IDLE problem to fix, which I verified by PHONE, I advise him to put the check valve in. I call to follow up. Next, after seeing an ounce of oil in the inlet, he had removed the entire compressor to remove oil he could have stopped in the first place. Mist is negligible. But bolting on a blower without this check valve has resulted in CCs being 2-4 quarts down or I would say nothing. Others may, INCLUDING JIM JR, consider this issue negligent.
Last edited by JackandJanet; 01-06-2015 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Removed Trash Talk
#13
01-06-2015, 05:27 PM
Just to give everyone a background on me I have been a long time lurker and this is my first post.... I have a 2007 F-150 5.4 3V with a whipple supercharger.
Reading this thread and the other CCV Thread has me concerned....
The Supercharger manufacturers do sell us blowers for a power boost on these motors. In effect FI of an engine does infact boost crankcase pressure by boosting cylinder pressures which increases the amount of blowby on the piston rings hence an increase in crank case pressure.
However the way that the pcv hoses are attached to the intake tract pre blower would pull a vacuum on the Crank case. This would negate the blowby however the amount of vacuum on the CC may or may not be greater than the induced blowby causing the Blower to "suck" oil from the Crankcase (however this is unlikely)
But no one can deny that a blower ups the Crankcase pressure via Blowby of the piston rings.
In closing I do agree with the use of a catch can to prevent vapors from entering the intake tract & contaminating the manifold heat exchanger.
Last edited by JackandJanet; 01-06-2015 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Removed Quote of Trash Talk
#14
01-06-2015, 05:58 PM
Senior Member
Just to give everyone a background on me I have been a long time lurker and this is my first post.... I have a 2007 F-150 5.4 3V with a whipple supercharger.
Reading this thread and the other CCV Thread has me concerned....
The Supercharger manufacturers do sell us blowers for a power boost on these motors. In effect FI of an engine does infact boost crankcase pressure by boosting cylinder pressures which increases the amount of blowby on the piston rings hence an increase in crank case pressure.
However the way that the pcv hoses are attached to the intake tract pre blower would pull a vacuum on the Crank case. This would negate the blowby however the amount of vacuum on the CC may or may not be greater than the induced blowby causing the Blower to "suck" oil from the Crankcase (however this is unlikely)
But no one can deny that a blower ups the Crankcase pressure via Blowby of the piston rings.
In closing I do agree with the use of a catch can to prevent vapors from entering the intake tract & contaminating the manifold heat exchanger.
Reading this thread and the other CCV Thread has me concerned....
The Supercharger manufacturers do sell us blowers for a power boost on these motors. In effect FI of an engine does infact boost crankcase pressure by boosting cylinder pressures which increases the amount of blowby on the piston rings hence an increase in crank case pressure.
However the way that the pcv hoses are attached to the intake tract pre blower would pull a vacuum on the Crank case. This would negate the blowby however the amount of vacuum on the CC may or may not be greater than the induced blowby causing the Blower to "suck" oil from the Crankcase (however this is unlikely)
But no one can deny that a blower ups the Crankcase pressure via Blowby of the piston rings.
In closing I do agree with the use of a catch can to prevent vapors from entering the intake tract & contaminating the manifold heat exchanger.
Great questions gentlemen. Here's some details.
All internal combustion engines no matter how they are setup have some blow by. Blow by is air and fuel both burnt and un-burnt from the combustion chamber which manages to slide by the
piston rings and in to the crankcase. Think about it... If your oil fits by the rings which is part of cylinder wall lubrication then it's very easy for air and fuel to fit past them.
This pressurizes the crankcase and contaminates the oil (turns it black and reduces it's viscosity). We've all seen very black oil. Some of it comes from heat the rest is pollution
from the combustion chamber that made it past the rings. The air that slides by creates pressure in the crankcase which leads to oil being pushed by seals like the valve cover, timing cover,
oil pan, and even the difficult to replace front and rear crank shaft seals. The pressure in the crankcase can also create a resistance to the pistons downward movement thus reducing horsepower.
Pressure in the crankcase can also force additional oil past the rings and in to the combustion chamber which can dilute the fuels octane rating. So what do we do about it?
Up through 1960 the crankcase pressure was vented to the outside world. An oil cap on one valve cover and a vent cap on the other. By the late 50's it was determined this is toxic air
polluting the world. The PCV valve developed in the 40's for use on military tanks and was now considered for use automobiles. The PCV works off of engine vacuum. Anytime the engine is under vacuum the PCV system is operating sucking vapors from the crankcase and allowing them to re-enter the engine through the intake to be burned in the combustion chamber. It is a pollution control device but it also does us the favor of sucking out the fuel and hydrocarbons that escape the rings. When these toxins are sucked out while still in vapor form they do not fall into or become mixed with the oil thus extending oil life. The PCV system however fails to function when the manifold is pressurized by a turbo or supercharger. The PCV system can also become overwhelmed and not provide enough ventilation when an engine has severely worn rings and has massive amounts of blow by.
So what to do? On a naturally aspirated engine...nothing. It works fine. However the oil mist, hydrocarbons, and air from the crankcase will eventually dirty up the intake and if you have secondary throttle butterflies which our trucks do it will eventually cause that system to fail. The butterflies can't move properly in the gummed up intake and the actuator motor fails while trying to force them through it. So clean your intake ever 80-100K. Clean or replace the PCV valve at this time as well. It gets dirty too.
What about us boosted guys? During normal operation the oil mist, hydrocarbons, and dirty air from the crankcase is sucked out through the PCV system and returned to our intake.
That oil lands on our intercoolers and reduces their efficiency. That means hotter air, less hp, and an increased risk of detonation. Wait a sec though. The PCV doesn't function without vacuum and we all no all know that when under boost we have no vacuum. That's where our problem begins. Now we have crankcase pressure building and no where for it to go. And yes there is even more of it when your boosted because now the pressure in the cylinder has been increased 50-100%. So in theory you have double the blow by of a stock NA motor. You guys have all been under the hood of your trucks. With a roots, twinscrew, or tvs blower the PCV hose routes back to the intake somewhere in front of the throttle body. And on the driver-side is a hose on top of the valve cover that connects behind the throttle body. This vacuums up the crankcase pressure anytime the throttle body is not WOT. It pollutes the blower and intercooler with oil mist. The best way to stop it is with a catch can. The can installs anywhere between the valve cover nipple and intake nipple behind the throttle body. Empty it every time you change your oil. Takes about 2-3 mins.
We still have a potential problem though. There's no guarantee that hose is providing enough crankcase ventilation when under boost as WOT. It probably is but who knows?? If you have an weeping oil seals then probably not. That's where the vented cap comes in to place. But we can't use a vented cap as it defeats the PCV system. So what about a vented cap with a check ball that seals and allows the PCV system to operate but will float and allow gases to escape when crankcase pressure is present? Now we are on to something and hence the reason this product was developed.
Hope this helps guys.
All internal combustion engines no matter how they are setup have some blow by. Blow by is air and fuel both burnt and un-burnt from the combustion chamber which manages to slide by the
piston rings and in to the crankcase. Think about it... If your oil fits by the rings which is part of cylinder wall lubrication then it's very easy for air and fuel to fit past them.
This pressurizes the crankcase and contaminates the oil (turns it black and reduces it's viscosity). We've all seen very black oil. Some of it comes from heat the rest is pollution
from the combustion chamber that made it past the rings. The air that slides by creates pressure in the crankcase which leads to oil being pushed by seals like the valve cover, timing cover,
oil pan, and even the difficult to replace front and rear crank shaft seals. The pressure in the crankcase can also create a resistance to the pistons downward movement thus reducing horsepower.
Pressure in the crankcase can also force additional oil past the rings and in to the combustion chamber which can dilute the fuels octane rating. So what do we do about it?
Up through 1960 the crankcase pressure was vented to the outside world. An oil cap on one valve cover and a vent cap on the other. By the late 50's it was determined this is toxic air
polluting the world. The PCV valve developed in the 40's for use on military tanks and was now considered for use automobiles. The PCV works off of engine vacuum. Anytime the engine is under vacuum the PCV system is operating sucking vapors from the crankcase and allowing them to re-enter the engine through the intake to be burned in the combustion chamber. It is a pollution control device but it also does us the favor of sucking out the fuel and hydrocarbons that escape the rings. When these toxins are sucked out while still in vapor form they do not fall into or become mixed with the oil thus extending oil life. The PCV system however fails to function when the manifold is pressurized by a turbo or supercharger. The PCV system can also become overwhelmed and not provide enough ventilation when an engine has severely worn rings and has massive amounts of blow by.
So what to do? On a naturally aspirated engine...nothing. It works fine. However the oil mist, hydrocarbons, and air from the crankcase will eventually dirty up the intake and if you have secondary throttle butterflies which our trucks do it will eventually cause that system to fail. The butterflies can't move properly in the gummed up intake and the actuator motor fails while trying to force them through it. So clean your intake ever 80-100K. Clean or replace the PCV valve at this time as well. It gets dirty too.
What about us boosted guys? During normal operation the oil mist, hydrocarbons, and dirty air from the crankcase is sucked out through the PCV system and returned to our intake.
That oil lands on our intercoolers and reduces their efficiency. That means hotter air, less hp, and an increased risk of detonation. Wait a sec though. The PCV doesn't function without vacuum and we all no all know that when under boost we have no vacuum. That's where our problem begins. Now we have crankcase pressure building and no where for it to go. And yes there is even more of it when your boosted because now the pressure in the cylinder has been increased 50-100%. So in theory you have double the blow by of a stock NA motor. You guys have all been under the hood of your trucks. With a roots, twinscrew, or tvs blower the PCV hose routes back to the intake somewhere in front of the throttle body. And on the driver-side is a hose on top of the valve cover that connects behind the throttle body. This vacuums up the crankcase pressure anytime the throttle body is not WOT. It pollutes the blower and intercooler with oil mist. The best way to stop it is with a catch can. The can installs anywhere between the valve cover nipple and intake nipple behind the throttle body. Empty it every time you change your oil. Takes about 2-3 mins.
We still have a potential problem though. There's no guarantee that hose is providing enough crankcase ventilation when under boost as WOT. It probably is but who knows?? If you have an weeping oil seals then probably not. That's where the vented cap comes in to place. But we can't use a vented cap as it defeats the PCV system. So what about a vented cap with a check ball that seals and allows the PCV system to operate but will float and allow gases to escape when crankcase pressure is present? Now we are on to something and hence the reason this product was developed.
Hope this helps guys.
The answer is simple. The crankcase would not be boosted through these lines as they are connected to the inlet side and not the pressurized side of the system. The check valves would do nothing for preventing oil blow by from getting on the water to air intercooler.
Last edited by twinskrewd; 01-06-2015 at 06:01 PM.
#15
01-07-2015, 11:20 AM
I agree 100% twin. I do not believe that the check valves would do anything to prevent the pcv system from injection of oil into the intake tract of the engine.
While a catch can does not stop the pcv system from expelling crankcase oil, the catch can does prevent most of the oil from making it to the intake tract of the motor..... The amount of oil that makes it out of the crankcase through the pcv system is usually marginal and somewhat negligible.
That being said, If there are large amounts of oil coming out of the pcv system it is generally a symptom of a larger problem.
While a catch can does not stop the pcv system from expelling crankcase oil, the catch can does prevent most of the oil from making it to the intake tract of the motor..... The amount of oil that makes it out of the crankcase through the pcv system is usually marginal and somewhat negligible.
That being said, If there are large amounts of oil coming out of the pcv system it is generally a symptom of a larger problem.