Why not install 1 255lph pump in tank, then put something like a powerdyne inline pump to come on via a hobbs switch when you get into boost?

 

Thanks beastie for the suggestion. Madferristi has also suggested that as well. I am considering it, however, I am trying to figure out the best set-up possible in the tank. The roots blowers hit so hard and fast that, at the top of the shift or peak rpms, they require a lot of fuel.

 

.........just remembered that there was a point to my fuel mod. ramblings (really)........

1. The lightning 5.4 m112 supercharged uses two (2) 190 lph in-tank fuel pumps (I have no ideal if these are standard pumps or forced induction-high pressure pumps)

2. The MM&FF mustang, "Frightning" used a single 255 lph in-tank pump with the lightning swap and JDM somehow changed the pump to two (2) 255 lph in-tank pumps, since they thought it was running lean (magazine does not specify if they did a full drivetrain/wiring harness swap, however, since it only had a single 255 lph pump, I assumed they did not, so I was wondering how they installed duel pumps without a full wiring harness swap???????) .

3. I am using a single 190 lph in-tank pump with my Allen M90 supercharger kit that appears to run my truck lean after only a shift kit added (worse with higher boost pulley and higher temps).

4. The Holley f150 5.4 roots supercharger kit that supposely puts out the same or more power as a stock 99' lightning, uses only one (1) forced induction-high pressure 255 lph in-tank pump.

Since I am using my stock 99' 4.6 pcm in my 2000 lightning 5.4 engine/2001 lightning supercharger assembly swap, what fuel pump(s) will give me enough gas at the top of the shift (highest rpms) when I go from the stock lightning 9 psi to 12 to 14 psi????????

 

Just exactly what do you mean by "Forced Induction" pump?

Bosch pumps are rated (255 or 325 LPH) at 50 psi, or higher.

The downside to the 325, as I have said before is that it flows too much at idle unless you are going to use the reduced voltage circuit that is built in to the "L" wiring harness. The excess flow translates to 42 psi at idle which was not a problem with my ATI setup (23# Injectors) but with the 42# "L" injectors it causes a minor problem at idle that self compensates but does cause a slightly rough idle.

 

The forced induction or high pressure version flow more fuel at higher pressures. For example, at 80 psi, the "standard" 255 lph pump will flow about 132 liters (35 gallons) per hour. At the same 80 psi, the 255 lph "forced induction" or "high pressure" pump will flow about 210 liters (50 gallons) per hour. The forced induction pumps will flow more fuel at higher pressures than, the standard pumps.

In comparison, how much fuel will the Bosch 255 and 325 pumps flow, at 80 psi?

 

update:

.....everything is on hold a little longer.....I can't take it anymore! .....gotta beef up the internals, install some spark plug thread inserts/heilcoil and bore it 10 or 20 over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.........like JDMs engine build kit with Manley drop forged H-beam rods and Probe pistons (quieter), but I will have to piece together a kit (of course).

.....ModMax sells 5.4 drop forged H-beam rods for $100 dollars cheaper than Manleys. The ModMax rods are rated at 800 hp and the Manleys are rated at 750hp. It also appears that the stock pistons are rated somewhere around 700hp and I do not have to change pistions ......but then again, if I bore it out, I will have to change pistons anyway. Later on.

 

Geez, you sound like me.

I pulled the heads on a 560 mile warranty takeout engine to put some spark plug threads in so that I never had to worry about them.

I wound up with ported heads, cams and Manley rods too.

Don't like the Chinese rods, heard of too many dimensional problems with them.

 

.........what the heck are you talking about?!?!

I'm just going after the most bang for the buck over time.

If I was going for "Top Full Size Truck", I would get a single cab flareside and forged/bored/ported 5.4 with billet internals, special treated crank to have a hp/tq rating way over 1,000 hp/tq. , built transmission, beefed up rearend, slicks, 4 link suspension and a twin turbo set-up with NOS.........but I don't have 20,000 + to spend on it.

The 2000 lightning 5.4 engine AND stock 2001 Lightning supercharger assembly including shipping, cost at least $1200 LESS THAN a forged 4.6 shortblock. If and when I can, I can take that $1200 savings and put it toward beefing up the larger cubic inch engine (5.4) that already came with PI heads (my 99' 4.6 does not have PI heads). If I beef up the 5.4, I could then later on choose from 4 other positive displacement blower replacements or install a turbo or centrifugal system on it.

If I would have got the forged 4.6 shortblock, I would still have to get another supercharger kit (my father already owns the one on my truck currently) and still have head work completed or get some PI heads with more threads. Worse case senario, I get impatient and install the lightning engine/supercharger now, which provides me with more power, more cubic inches, better intercooler, and better heads, than I currently have at the cost of a USED supercharger kit. For me, its all about options........less costly, usable options.

 

 

Does that mean you found 4.6/5.4 shortblocks rated at 750 hp or more for $2000? Do they have rotating assemblies? engine re-build kits? The DSS 4.6 750 hp shortblock was $3,000 + shipping.

If I could have, I would have got a 4.6 forged shortblock and a turbo kit. But, even when the kits are ready, I am looking at $7,000 to $8,000 at least, for both items. I would not be able to do something like that for more than several years. Therefore, the direction of my project is determined by my finances. If you know of a better bang for the buck than the lightning engine/supercharger, I would like to know what it is and the cost.

 

......in the article entitled, "Battle of the Boost Turbo vs. Roots vs. Centrifugal" by Richard Holdener, in the August 2003 Issue of Hot Rod, on page 32 the author wrote, "This bench-racing philosophy is exactly why I include the power curves. Note that the Paxton Novi 1200 produced the highest peak power, 617 hp at 6,000 rpm. The turbo, on the other hand, produced 599 peak hoursepower. Now forget the peak nunbers and check out the rest of the curve. From 2,500 rpm to 5,700 rpm, the turbo posted significant power gains over the Paxton. Given equivalent vehicles, the turbo would easily motor away from the centrifugal in an acceleration contest. The minimal power gain above 5,700 rpm would not overcome the huge power losses experienced throughout the rest of the rev range. In a street car, most of the driving is done from idle to 4,000 rpm (or less). It is in this rev range that both the Roots and the turbo offer more power than the centrifugal."

On page 34, he wrote, "The turbo offered massive midrange torque production, the only system to exceed 600 lb-ft. Need more convincing? At 4,000 rpm, the turbo was more than 100 lb-ft stronger than either the Roots or centrifgal."

The following data was provided by the article:

Naturally Aspirated stroker Ford 5.0L (no blower)
327ci with 8:4:1 compression ratio
Peak hp: 392 hp at 6,000rpm
Peak torque: 386 lb-ft at 4,400 rpm
Average street hp: (2,900-6,000 rpm): 310 hp
Average street torque (2,900-6,000): 365 lb-ft
Average race hp: (4,000 - 6,000 rpm): 352 hp
Average race torque (4,000 - 6,000 rpm): 371 lb-ft

with Paxton Novi 1200 (centrifugal)
Minimum boost pressure: 1.7 psi at 2,500 rpm
Maximum boost pressure: 9.5 psi at 6,000 rpm
Peak hp: 617 hp at 6,000 rpm
Peak torque: 561 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm
Average street hp (2,500 - 6,000 rpm): 412 hp
Average street torque (2,500 - 6,000 rpm): 494 lb-ft
Average race hp (4,000 - 6,000 rpm): 518 hp
Average race torque (4,000 - 6,000 rpm) 542 lb-ft

with HP Performance Turbo (turbo)
Minimum boost pressure: 5.7 psi at 2,500 rpm (Note: The steady load at 2,500 allowed the turbo to spool up quicker than if in a vehicle.)
Maximum boost pressure: 9.5 psi at 5,100 rpm
Peak hp: 600 hp at 6,000 rpm
Peak torque: 617 lb-ft at 4,200 rpm
Average street hp (2,500 - 6,000 rpm): 460 hp
Average street torque (2,500 - 6,000): 564 lb-ft
Average race hp (4,000 - 6,000 rpm): 555 hp
Average race torque (4,000 - 6,000 rpm) 585 lb-ft

with Holley 174 Blower (roots)
Minimum boost pressure: 4.8 psi at 2,500 rpm
Maximum boost pressure: 8.0 psi at 6,000 rpm
Peak hp: 535 hp at 6,000 rpm
Peak torque: 513 lb-ft at 4,600 rpm
Average street hp (2,500 - 6,000 rpm): 394 hp
Average street torque (2,500 -6,000): 483 lb-ft
Average race hp (4,000 - 6,000 rpm): 472 hp
Average race torque (4,000 - 6,000 rpm): 497 lb-ft

NOTE: Testing was completed with a Paxton Novi 1200 centrifugal, HP turbo, and a Holley 174ci roots blower on a stroker 5.0L Ford engine measuring 327ci.

Also note that, the author summarizes that the centrifugal and turbo torque production was facilitated by a dual plane intake manifold, yet a single plane intake manifold had to be used with the roots blower. The author summarized that, the single plane intake manifold used with the roots, did not have enough runner lenght to promote torque production.

Furthermore, the author stated that Holley sent the smallest pulley, therefore, the roots was limited to 8 pounds of boost during testing, while the turbo and centrifugal were tested at a max. of 9.5 pounds of boost. The author summarized that if the roots had a pulley that allowed 9.5 psi, he would expect to see an additional 15-20 hp and torque for the roots.

 

as stated in the article - this test will probably create more questions than answers.

the turbo was definentally the winner (to me) the roots vs. cents was not so easy because the cents owned the roots past 4000 rpm. in a 1/4 run i spend more time in 4000 than i do at 2500 rpm so (to me) the cents is a better choice for a 1/8 or 1/4 mile car or truck. i dont believe the holley was designed to make much more boost and since holley didnt send the pulleys its the would of, could of, should of game.
i love this article and have looked at it often.

i will throw another one at you,the current issue of mustang fords & fast mustangs has 4, first gen lighnings that are running very good times, both 60 foot and 1/4 mile and they all have cents s/c.
the fastest was a ati running 22 boast on a built motor but with problems and he ran a 10.73 @ 99 (this should be a 9 second truck. Now i like this one but 22 psi and a built stoker tells me this is really a race truck. the other 3 are street trucks running from 10 to 15 psi on stock short blocks and no intercoolers laying down high 11 and low 12 in full street trim (4400 to 4600# with driver) 1.7 sixty foots with a vehicle this heavy tells me the cents isnt such a slug of the line (they all run aftermarket torque convertor in the 2600 to 3000 stall range).

 

.......yeah, with me, the article raised a lot of questions and concerns. The Eaton m112 roots, Bell or Whipple twinscrew, ATI cent., nor the Novi 2000 were tested. Nor was a trition SOHC or DOHC engine used. Nor were the same boost levels used.

One of the tuners in the lightning forums recently commented that he is performing testing and has made around 900 + hp with either a a roots or twinscrew blower on a 5.4. It there is a roots or twinscrew that can make that much power and hit harder and faster than both the cent. and turbo, that will change everything.
As well as, the roots still outperforms the cent and turbo at lower rpms.

Yet, it is also true that cents. like the ATI can be spec'd out with tighter tolerances AND have the race bearings added. This causes more boost creation at earlier rpms, yet have a topend similar to a turbo.

Then again, the turbo outperforms the roots and cent. in the midrange AND topend in hp AND torque.

 

Iron, Brother Dave,

As always it comes down to how and what you are using the Blower/Turbo for. It is almost information overload. I read the articles and I was set on a certain on my way of thinking. Doh!

Bill

 

Hey Outdare! Hope you had a great Christmas. I heard that Ray is getting ready to mount some new prototype roots blower....something about it being a 4 liter blower and able to blow the doors off the Texas ATI boys. He said he is tired of all this tuff talk and hes ready to kick some hair dryer lov'in boat pull'in freaks.....or something like that.

I have not figured out a way to return my gifts for Manely H-Beam Rods/Probe pistions.....yet. I did get a 30 gallon craftsman air compressior with impact tools........but no sockets.

Right now, I am taking a break from attempting to install the rear leafspring center bolt and spacer......like I should have when I first lowered it a year ago! ha! ........Yeah, I remember that it was actually..... YOU! ....that recommended the article to me.