Of course clipping creates heat as does unclipped clean music. No one said otherwise. But Clipping only heats up the coil enough to damage it if the power produced by that clipping amp exceeds the limits of the coil. Simple electronics/physics. PERIOD. Same thing would happen if you play perfectly clean undistorted,unclipped music from a 500 watt amp into 100 watt speakers; as soon as the speakers mechanical limits (thermal or otherwise) are exceeded the driver will be damaged.
I do not think we were disagreeing with you, just clarifying the issue.
Underpowering does not blow speakers. Period. Fact. If there is not enough power available to blow them they will not blow.
Misuse and improper setup does damage speakers. Driving a low powered amp to the rails in the quest for more loudness than it can safely produce is a big part of the problem.
You need to understand what happens to an amp when seriously clipped. It can produce more than its rated power which of course heats up the coil and causes damage if that power exceeds the coils limits. That fact is not in dispute here.

You can play clipped music all day long without damaging anything as long as the power output from that clipped music does not exceed the limits of the driver. Fact.
I have been in car audio since 84. I worked for EPI/ Concord before they were moved from Newburyport, MA to JBL in NY and CA.
I used to build speakers and blow them intentionally in our power test cell. I was in the quality control department. That was fun.

 

Somcoupe I'm sorry for hijacking your thread hopefully I can help you out with something in the future.[/QUOTE]

Its cool lol, but yeah I am serious about hitting the 160-165 range though, just need to look at how much it may run and what brands I should run. I'll check to see if pm's are working and send ya one if it is.

 

I think I can some it all up and put it to rest.
We all agree that inproper setup and misuse will blow speakers.
We all agree excessive clipping will damage speakers.
If the amp delivers more power than the speakers rating (and we all know speaker companies never lie about specs ) and is driven into a clipped state it can blow speakers.
If the amp delivers less power than the speakers rating (and again no lies or deception) and is driven into an excessive clipped state which causes the amp to overpower it, it can blow the amp.
So far I think all parties would agree on these statements enough to conclude.
I will add I more note to keep this simple, and this is a stripped down typical/normal/general statement used for easy understanding.
speakers are the voice of the system while power is the volume of the system.
With that being said here goes
A customer that misuses or uses a system that is not properly set up typically blows speakers because they are looking for more volume. Loud is never loud enough. Even though turning up the volume does not make the system louder they continue to do so because they still want more. If the customer or even you and I, had an unlimited supply of clean power we would eventually find a point on the volume **** that would be enough, unfortunately that is not the real world. And more times than not the customer does not have enough money to purchase an amp with the power they actually need or in the new internet sales frontier the customers are not educated enough to even know thats what they need. That is why I say more speakers are blown by not enough power because the volume **** never seems to go high enough and the pockets are never deep enough to afford the power neccesary.
I think if someone said you blew a speaker simply because the amp is 50 watts and your speaker is 100 watts with no reason or explaination than that would be incorrect. And if you never abuse that type of system you will never blow the speakers regardless of that rating. However when someone says they blew a speaker the abuse has already happened. It is definately a cause and effect situation.
Norm and 97f250 I think we are all on a similar page with similar beliefs on the subject, just with a different way of expressing it, but because of the disconnection through the internet we were not able to make or point in the normal fashion. I did however enjoy the competitive nature of the argument with people that do know something about this industry. I'm on carsound and performance every once in a while under the name everythingisacompetition go figure.

 

I am on carsound as well. Name is Norm.

 

My entire point basically is this: When we argue a point or try to simply make a point on a public forum such as this, we need to use correct terminology that is befitting the newbies and uneducated, in additon to affirming what others may not be entirely sure about. I don't see why it is so prevalent right now to simply say, "underpowering speakers damages them". That is not the correct way to describe this whole issue. It's also not correct to say clipping destroys speakers, or distortion destroys speakers. None of these statements standing alone is correct. These statements all need to be qualified to say that under certain circumstances, these things can contribute to a bad situation up to and including damage. Like we have agreed, it takes a combination of things to come together for an amp to do damage to speakers that it ordinarily wouldn't damage. The only reason this seems to be a phenomenon to some people is simply because of their lack of knowledge. I believe people who dish info out should be held accountable for what they say. If they say it in a way that is confusing, it needs to be clarified. If they say it in a way that is just plainly wrong, it needs to be pointed out. I feel confident that because of the discussion here that someone probably knows more than they did before reading it. It would be beneficial to all users of car audio equipment to be up on even a few basics, but that isn't the case. Let's not forget that the vast majority of users never use a forum such as this, never make the effort to learn anything about their gear AT ALL, never do any research, almost always connect something improperly, almost always abuse their equipment, it goes on and on. And, on top of that, most users buy very, very poor equipment when you consider the whole scheme of things. It's very common for John Doe to go to Walmart, spend $200-300 for some gear, hook it up incorrectly, damage that equipment, then whine about the fact that it failed, when actually his own lack of knowledge and/or laziness is what the problem truly is. Let's do what we can to help out by giving detailed, complete information that is not misleading.

 

You seem to have good sense...lol. Got a question for you. I've got a MTX Thunder amp with a gain, a frequency and equalizer *****. No numbers on the dials just turn them to the left or to the right. What should the frequency and equalizer ***** be turned to? Should they be in the middle or slightly turned down towards the left (counter clockwise). I have the amp set to low pass filter and pushing a kicker cvr10.
Thanks

 

Without using electronic equipment for measurement, a good way to adjust gain is to set the bass and treble on your head unit to flat or zero. The preamplified output of a decent head unit will clip the signal to your amp at approximately 80-85% of the volume **** swing or turn. Above that point noticeable distortion will be introduced into the system. With bass and treble adjustments turned UP, that CAN be as low as 50% of the volume turn. You do not want to try to adjust the gain of your amp under those conditions. (If your HU has a dedicated subwoofer pre-amp output, that MAY not apply in your case, but it doesn't hurt to do it anyway) After setting your HU bass and treble, turn the gain, equalizer, and frequency ***** of the amp all the way to the left. Now turn up the volume on the HU to about 80-85% of the total. My volume goes to 66, so I set my gains at the 56 level. Worked out great. This will normally be the max volume you will use. Any volume level above that will result in AUDIBLE distortion. So after adjusting the volume level to the 80-85% setting, begin to turn the gain control to the right. This is matching the pre-out voltage of the HU to the input voltage of the amp. Depending on the pre-out voltage of the HU, you may not need to turn it at all. In fact, if your HU and amp are not properly matched, you may not be able to adjust correctly. For example, if you have a HU with 4V of output and an amp only capable of 2V of adjustment on the input, you're screwed on the gain adjustment. The HU will drive that amp into clipping at a very low volume level, and there's nothing you can do to change that. The only thing a gain control does is match that voltage of the amp and HU to the optimum. This allows the HU to drive the amp to produce its rated power with the least distortion that it is capable of. The gain **** is not a volume ****. So you can see, it is crucial to properly match gear to work together.

The frequency **** is for the crossover frequency. If there are no numbers, set it in the middle and turn it each way and listen to it until you are happy with how the sound is in combination with your "main" speakers.

The equalizer is probably a bass boost. That will boost bass frequencies a few dB at a certain level. It's a matter of taste.

 

Thanks for the detailed explaination. One step further if you have time. When turning up the gain...exactly what am I listening for? Should I be listening to the radio or rap or what? My speaker is downfiring in a Q-Logic custom box, so its hard to listen for distortion. How do I know when enough is enough?
Secondly once the gain is taken care of, I should only use either the bass control on my factory HU or the equalizer (bass boost), to control the level of bass. I listen to a wide range of stuff ie. country, rap, and alternative, so I'm always screwing with the bass setting.
Thanks again.

 

Sorry for that oversight. While adjusting the gain, you are listening for distortion at or around that 80-85% volume spot. Crank it up til you hear distortion and back it down slightly. All you can do is experiment with what you listen to normally. Set it and leave it for a few days. Same with the bass boost and crossover. If your amp is clipping badly, you will notice it. One great way is to set the volume at the highest tolerable level for you in your normal position. Open the doors and move away about 20-30 feet. If there is distortion, you will hear it more clearly at a distance.