6.5 component install tips
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From: Northern Kentucky
6.5 component install tips
I got the 6.5 component set ordered and 36 sq ft of RAAMmat60 ordered. Anybody have any good advice or install tips before the big day? What about the wire connections should I worry about finding OEM to aftermarket adapters? Stock ones will never go back in unless I sell it and then I could just buy a cheap set of 6x8's and throw in there.
Also for now I will be running the spekaers off of my Eclipse CD5441 headunit. I know the MB Quarts will be way underpowered. ANy danger of harming something?
Also for now I will be running the spekaers off of my Eclipse CD5441 headunit. I know the MB Quarts will be way underpowered. ANy danger of harming something?
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From: Eastern TN
KYFordFreak -
If you want to keep your OEM connectors, Circuit City, Best Buy, Tweeter, etc. all have harness adapters that give you "flying" leads from the factory harness - no cutting. I personally just cut mine off and tinned them with solder before connecting them to the crossovers.
I know this will sound like blasphemy to some of the "audiophiles" that lurk around here, but what gauge speaker wire you use is of little consequence at the wire lengths and power levels applicable to a vehicle (excluding subwoofers).
For example, lets say you are going to push 100 watts to each and every door. Lets say the speaker is a 4 ohm load and the wiring from the factory is 16 gauge and the harness is 15 feet long from HU / amp to the speaker. Using those parameters, you end up with:
20 Volts RMS (average) dropped across the speaker
.12 ohms resistance of the speaker wire itself
4.854 amps of current flow (average) through the speaker
5.74 watts of lost power, measured at the speaker
-0.26db loss of signal, measured at the speaker
What does this mean? 16 gauge wire is more than adequate to handle the loads presented by a 100 watts amp into a 4 ohm speaker.
Lets say you wanted to use 12 gauge speaker wire instead. Here's the numbers:
20 Volts RMS (average) dropped across the speaker
.048 ohms resistance of the speaker wire itself
4.94 amps of current flow (average) through the speaker
2.36 watts of lost power, measured at the speaker
-0.10db loss of signal, measured at the speaker
As you can see, the gain is extremely small for the added work, complexity and cost of replacing the speaker wires. At any realistic listening levels, it would be inaudible. You would be better off investing the time and energy into getting a power amp to drive those new MB Quart components. (BTW, I installed those exact speakers in my friends car. They are quite good. I'll bet you will be pleased. He is driving them with a 40 watt per channel Kenwood amp and they ROCK!!)
As a side note, because human hearing is not linear it requires 10 times the power to make a given signal sound twice as loud to an average group of listeners. In other words, if you are playing music at 10 watts RMS constant, it would require 100 watts RMS constant for 90% of a given population to declare it was twice as loud as the 10 watt level. That is why losing a few watts to smaller wiring is not an issue.
As far as damaging the MB Quarts, the following is true for most any quality speaker: Too little power will damage them easier than too much (within reason). When you overdrive an amplifier, it begins "clipping" which, loosely translated, means the amp is no longer producing the variable signal of music, but rather a straight line DC current (much like a battery). This is especially damaging to tweeters, because their small voice coils cannot handle the DC current for any appreciable amount of time.
Anyway, so much for the the math and data behind the wire: You need to decide how important the wire sizes are to you.
Let the flaming begin !!!!
If you want to keep your OEM connectors, Circuit City, Best Buy, Tweeter, etc. all have harness adapters that give you "flying" leads from the factory harness - no cutting. I personally just cut mine off and tinned them with solder before connecting them to the crossovers.
I know this will sound like blasphemy to some of the "audiophiles" that lurk around here, but what gauge speaker wire you use is of little consequence at the wire lengths and power levels applicable to a vehicle (excluding subwoofers).
For example, lets say you are going to push 100 watts to each and every door. Lets say the speaker is a 4 ohm load and the wiring from the factory is 16 gauge and the harness is 15 feet long from HU / amp to the speaker. Using those parameters, you end up with:
20 Volts RMS (average) dropped across the speaker
.12 ohms resistance of the speaker wire itself
4.854 amps of current flow (average) through the speaker
5.74 watts of lost power, measured at the speaker
-0.26db loss of signal, measured at the speaker
What does this mean? 16 gauge wire is more than adequate to handle the loads presented by a 100 watts amp into a 4 ohm speaker.
Lets say you wanted to use 12 gauge speaker wire instead. Here's the numbers:
20 Volts RMS (average) dropped across the speaker
.048 ohms resistance of the speaker wire itself
4.94 amps of current flow (average) through the speaker
2.36 watts of lost power, measured at the speaker
-0.10db loss of signal, measured at the speaker
As you can see, the gain is extremely small for the added work, complexity and cost of replacing the speaker wires. At any realistic listening levels, it would be inaudible. You would be better off investing the time and energy into getting a power amp to drive those new MB Quart components. (BTW, I installed those exact speakers in my friends car. They are quite good. I'll bet you will be pleased. He is driving them with a 40 watt per channel Kenwood amp and they ROCK!!)
As a side note, because human hearing is not linear it requires 10 times the power to make a given signal sound twice as loud to an average group of listeners. In other words, if you are playing music at 10 watts RMS constant, it would require 100 watts RMS constant for 90% of a given population to declare it was twice as loud as the 10 watt level. That is why losing a few watts to smaller wiring is not an issue.
As far as damaging the MB Quarts, the following is true for most any quality speaker: Too little power will damage them easier than too much (within reason). When you overdrive an amplifier, it begins "clipping" which, loosely translated, means the amp is no longer producing the variable signal of music, but rather a straight line DC current (much like a battery). This is especially damaging to tweeters, because their small voice coils cannot handle the DC current for any appreciable amount of time.
Anyway, so much for the the math and data behind the wire: You need to decide how important the wire sizes are to you.
Let the flaming begin !!!!
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From: Northern Kentucky
Originally posted by B-Man
KYFordFreak -
As far as damaging the MB Quarts, the following is true for most any quality speaker: Too little power will damage them easier than too much (within reason). When you overdrive an amplifier, it begins "clipping" which, loosely translated, means the amp is no longer producing the variable signal of music, but rather a straight line DC current (much like a battery). This is especially damaging to tweeters, because their small voice coils cannot handle the DC current for any appreciable amount of time.
Anyway, so much for the the math and data behind the wire: You need to decide how important the wire sizes are to you.
Let the flaming begin !!!!
KYFordFreak -
As far as damaging the MB Quarts, the following is true for most any quality speaker: Too little power will damage them easier than too much (within reason). When you overdrive an amplifier, it begins "clipping" which, loosely translated, means the amp is no longer producing the variable signal of music, but rather a straight line DC current (much like a battery). This is especially damaging to tweeters, because their small voice coils cannot handle the DC current for any appreciable amount of time.
Anyway, so much for the the math and data behind the wire: You need to decide how important the wire sizes are to you.
Let the flaming begin !!!!
What do you think I will need as far as power goes? My Eclipse head (cd5441) unit pushes less than 30 watts RMS that the MB's need. I was hoping that would do put maybe I should opt for a 75-100watt RMS per channel amp.
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From: Eastern TN
KYFordFreak -
If you can afford an amp that will deliver 75-100 watts RMS per channel, go for it!! Those MB's will sound great!
I would check it out with the Eclipse driving them alone first. You can always add the amp later, if you need more power...
As far as heating the RAAMmat, I did not do that. It is so sticky in it's native format that I did not need to heat it for application. But, then again, I installed mine in Florida so it was hot outside anyway.
If you can afford an amp that will deliver 75-100 watts RMS per channel, go for it!! Those MB's will sound great!
I would check it out with the Eclipse driving them alone first. You can always add the amp later, if you need more power...
As far as heating the RAAMmat, I did not do that. It is so sticky in it's native format that I did not need to heat it for application. But, then again, I installed mine in Florida so it was hot outside anyway.
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From: Seabrook,NH
Just to clarify: Underpowering speakers does NOT damage them. It is the user that overdrives the amp that damages them. An overdriven amp provides more than its rated power for a longer "duty cycle" which can damage the speaker if it exceeds the speaker's thermal limits or forces the cone beyond its mechanical limits. If underpowering them was bad we should not use our volume control.
Not flaming just clarifying
Not flaming just clarifying
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From: Eastern TN
I'm sorry if my post was misleading. What I should have said is trying to achieve a high output level with a low powered amp is a definite hazard for speakers.
I wrongly assumed that everyone understood that the original context of the thread was speakers being damaged because they were not receiving enough power to reach the output level KYFordFreak wanted.
Thanks for clarifying. I'll try to be more cognizant of my commentary in the future.
I wrongly assumed that everyone understood that the original context of the thread was speakers being damaged because they were not receiving enough power to reach the output level KYFordFreak wanted.
Thanks for clarifying. I'll try to be more cognizant of my commentary in the future.
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OK so I am getting slighlty confused and way over my head here. I've been out of car audio to long and never really knew what I was doing till now.
OK it's been stated that if the user tries to push the amp be it an external amp or in a headunit that the amp exceeds it's rated capacity or "duty cycle" which damages speakers. How can you tell when this is happening? Cliping, distortion, etc, what?
I'm thinking I want the amp so I get the full benefit of buying these nice new MB's. Since mod money is tight I thought of doing like b-man said and trying the Eclipse headunit first.
Is it possible I could get a 4ch amp and only run 2ch right now (actually running 1mid & 1 tweet per side but just one connection to the crossover)? I do not see where it would hurt anything. Going this route saves me money in the long run if I decide buy a cheap set of rear speakers and want them amped too. Right now it's toss up I would settle for a 2ch amp.
Also, what kind of high/low pass filter on the amp should I be looking for the MB's go 38hz-32khz? How would I go about getting a 2 ohm load on the amp?
Only one catch my Eclipse head unit has 4-6 volt outputs and I'm not sure if that is adjustable. Gotta get my book out or talk to my Eclipse dealer.--- Ok nevermid on this... problem solved I can just get level convertors (attenuators). With a 4 volt HU ouput and most amps handling up to 2 volt I would need a 6db and then gain could be set around half way.
OK it's been stated that if the user tries to push the amp be it an external amp or in a headunit that the amp exceeds it's rated capacity or "duty cycle" which damages speakers. How can you tell when this is happening? Cliping, distortion, etc, what?
I'm thinking I want the amp so I get the full benefit of buying these nice new MB's. Since mod money is tight I thought of doing like b-man said and trying the Eclipse headunit first.
Is it possible I could get a 4ch amp and only run 2ch right now (actually running 1mid & 1 tweet per side but just one connection to the crossover)? I do not see where it would hurt anything. Going this route saves me money in the long run if I decide buy a cheap set of rear speakers and want them amped too. Right now it's toss up I would settle for a 2ch amp.
Also, what kind of high/low pass filter on the amp should I be looking for the MB's go 38hz-32khz? How would I go about getting a 2 ohm load on the amp?
Only one catch my Eclipse head unit has 4-6 volt outputs and I'm not sure if that is adjustable. Gotta get my book out or talk to my Eclipse dealer.--- Ok nevermid on this... problem solved I can just get level convertors (attenuators). With a 4 volt HU ouput and most amps handling up to 2 volt I would need a 6db and then gain could be set around half way.
Last edited by KYFordFreak; Jun 13, 2003 at 02:33 AM.
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From: Eastern TN
KYFordFreak -
You are exactly right. Distortion or clipping is how an over-driven amp (of any make other than McIntosh
) will make it's overload known. Simply put, if you don't play it really loud and distorted, your speakers will be just fine. If you find that you are getting distortion when playing the music at a level you listen at often, you need an amp.
Yes, you can run a 4 channel amp in 2 channel mode without danger.
You would have only 1 connection from the amp to each crossover. The mid and tweeter connect to the crossover. You may want to experiment with a filter on your amp. However, it would be more effective if your HU has the ability to do it. I bet it does, if it has 4V outputs, etc.
As a side note: Although the MB Quarts might be listed as going down to 38HZ, my experience has been they will distort at moderate listening levels if you go much lower than 60HZ. I crossed mine over at 63HZ (my HU has this as 1 of the settings) and send the balance of the lows to my subs.
Most amps have an adjustment on the input to allow connection to 4V head units. I would not put a line converter in the mix unless you absolutely have to. As a side note, I recently installed an Alpine 9813 which has 4V outputs. It drives my amps nicely, and they are not marked as 4V ready or anything like that. I simply adjusted the inputs down a little on the amps.
I know most folks here say to forget about the rear doors when it comes to speakers, but I have to say I disagree. In my SuperCrew, the balance and impact of sound is awesome with the MB Quarts in every door. In a S-cab it may be different, but in my 'Screw I would not have it any other way. The mid-bass is just outstanding, and the highs complement the fronts as well. Just my $.02.
Good thing about your approach: You can build on it as you see fit. Install your speakers with the HU, play it for a few days and then decide on an amp, etc.
Don't buy cheap speakers for the rear doors. That is like buying Pirelli's for the front wheels and then putting re-treads on the back. If you aren't going to put decent rear speakers in, leave them out completely. You'll compromise the clean sound of the MB Quarts if you put a lesser speaker in the mix. Save the power for the MB Quarts. They'll need it.
Too bad you aren't in Florida. I would like to help you out and hear the results. I'll bet it is gonna kick a$$ !!
You are exactly right. Distortion or clipping is how an over-driven amp (of any make other than McIntosh
) will make it's overload known. Simply put, if you don't play it really loud and distorted, your speakers will be just fine. If you find that you are getting distortion when playing the music at a level you listen at often, you need an amp.Yes, you can run a 4 channel amp in 2 channel mode without danger.
You would have only 1 connection from the amp to each crossover. The mid and tweeter connect to the crossover. You may want to experiment with a filter on your amp. However, it would be more effective if your HU has the ability to do it. I bet it does, if it has 4V outputs, etc.
As a side note: Although the MB Quarts might be listed as going down to 38HZ, my experience has been they will distort at moderate listening levels if you go much lower than 60HZ. I crossed mine over at 63HZ (my HU has this as 1 of the settings) and send the balance of the lows to my subs.
Most amps have an adjustment on the input to allow connection to 4V head units. I would not put a line converter in the mix unless you absolutely have to. As a side note, I recently installed an Alpine 9813 which has 4V outputs. It drives my amps nicely, and they are not marked as 4V ready or anything like that. I simply adjusted the inputs down a little on the amps.
I know most folks here say to forget about the rear doors when it comes to speakers, but I have to say I disagree. In my SuperCrew, the balance and impact of sound is awesome with the MB Quarts in every door. In a S-cab it may be different, but in my 'Screw I would not have it any other way. The mid-bass is just outstanding, and the highs complement the fronts as well. Just my $.02.
Good thing about your approach: You can build on it as you see fit. Install your speakers with the HU, play it for a few days and then decide on an amp, etc.
Don't buy cheap speakers for the rear doors. That is like buying Pirelli's for the front wheels and then putting re-treads on the back. If you aren't going to put decent rear speakers in, leave them out completely. You'll compromise the clean sound of the MB Quarts if you put a lesser speaker in the mix. Save the power for the MB Quarts. They'll need it.
Too bad you aren't in Florida. I would like to help you out and hear the results. I'll bet it is gonna kick a$$ !!
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From: CA
Too much reading up above so if i'm stepping on someone else's toes 
.
Good call on the raammat. Be sure to use a heat gun and alcohol (both in rubbing and budweiser forms). Get an amp and run some 14awg. Works great as it is cheap, easy to run, and is bigger than wussy 16awg. Grab some kind of foam gasketing material to stick between the mounting bracket and door...and also the speaker and braket if the speaker doesnt have a wrap around gasket.
Definitly need an amp!
.Good call on the raammat. Be sure to use a heat gun and alcohol (both in rubbing and budweiser forms). Get an amp and run some 14awg. Works great as it is cheap, easy to run, and is bigger than wussy 16awg. Grab some kind of foam gasketing material to stick between the mounting bracket and door...and also the speaker and braket if the speaker doesnt have a wrap around gasket.
Definitly need an amp!
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From: Northern Kentucky
Ok, I think I almost got it all figured out and gathering the small things and maybe the amp. To get the sound I want (crisp and clean) I will need that amp. The specs of the Eclipse are 13x4 rms, 47x4 max, with a 5 volt output on the 3 sets of RCA's and it does have a high pass for front rears and then a low pass for any subs. They don't say what the crossover points are, will ask around and experiment between headunit and any x-over on the amp. I am assuming any decent brand (Orion, Hifonics, MTX, etc) should accept the 5v input, if not what will happen?
Don't worry plenty of alcohol will be involved (in both forms).
b-man I have family that is down in Florida right now on vac., if I had only known I would have drove down too and had the expert help me on this install, LOL JK. If your ever up this way let me know, I owe you one.
Don't worry plenty of alcohol will be involved (in both forms).
b-man I have family that is down in Florida right now on vac., if I had only known I would have drove down too and had the expert help me on this install, LOL JK. If your ever up this way let me know, I owe you one.
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From: Eastern TN
KYFordFreak -
Too bad you didn't come down. I would have helped you out AND we would still have had time to drink a beer or two...
You don't owe me anything more than an audition one day, preferably parked just outside a Hooters !!
Good luck and keep us posted...
Too bad you didn't come down. I would have helped you out AND we would still have had time to drink a beer or two...
You don't owe me anything more than an audition one day, preferably parked just outside a Hooters !!
Good luck and keep us posted...
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From: Northern Kentucky
Well, if that's all you want... I mean I was going to make you rich and let you run your own Hooters place... but if you just want an audition then OK. LOL, JK. We both only wish.... Thanks for all the help. Let you know what I think when it's done... might be awhile, it never stops raining here.
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From: Northern Kentucky
b-man & others
I need a second opinion on a amp I am thinking about buying for my MB 6.5's (RSD 216's). Ok the MB's are listed to handle 60-130, not sure if that's RMS or max. Now I've got a list of about 50 amps I can order of all types and makes but I got wait for shipping and all that other stuff. The local audio shop (where I bought my headunit) has a Eclipse Intergrated series amp (ea2212) that he will make a deal with me on. He sells this amp for $180, but since we know each other he said $150 with 10ga install kit.
Specs on EA2212 amp:
50x2 @ 4 ohm RMS at 13.8v
70x2 @ 2 ohm RMS at 13.8v
105x2 @ 2 ohm MAX at 13.8v
Low pass 50-200hz
High pass 120hz
I'm pretty sure this amp will power those MB's fine but I want to be 100% sure this is enough power. Secondly should I worry about the high pass filter, it's at 120hz non-adjustable and the Eclipse headunit is at like 80hz or 120hz non-adjustable. He reccommend that I run them full range unless I was adding subs too. I thought it would be better to cut out the lower freq all the time but I still wanna enjoy any added bass I can get.
I need a second opinion on a amp I am thinking about buying for my MB 6.5's (RSD 216's). Ok the MB's are listed to handle 60-130, not sure if that's RMS or max. Now I've got a list of about 50 amps I can order of all types and makes but I got wait for shipping and all that other stuff. The local audio shop (where I bought my headunit) has a Eclipse Intergrated series amp (ea2212) that he will make a deal with me on. He sells this amp for $180, but since we know each other he said $150 with 10ga install kit.
Specs on EA2212 amp:
50x2 @ 4 ohm RMS at 13.8v
70x2 @ 2 ohm RMS at 13.8v
105x2 @ 2 ohm MAX at 13.8v
Low pass 50-200hz
High pass 120hz
I'm pretty sure this amp will power those MB's fine but I want to be 100% sure this is enough power. Secondly should I worry about the high pass filter, it's at 120hz non-adjustable and the Eclipse headunit is at like 80hz or 120hz non-adjustable. He reccommend that I run them full range unless I was adding subs too. I thought it would be better to cut out the lower freq all the time but I still wanna enjoy any added bass I can get.