Hey WOT there is a few of us going to Lapeer tomorrow for T&T.

Just an FYI.

--Joe

 

Sorry man, I'm working til early afternoon then have family stuff to do.

But I'm definatly in for October!

WOT

 

Can you tell me how you guys are wiring this pump up? Where are you getting your power source from? Thanks

 

Did you guys know that the model T didn't come with a water pump. There were aftermarket Co's that made them though if you wanted. They used the convection of the hot fluid through the radiator to draw the fluid from the block. Wild hugh.

 

Awe Man sssccchhittt!!!! I want to put an electric pump on my L and now ya'll go and bring up all this.

What about if it was wired with a Hi/Lo speed switch. It would run on Low until the Temp. came up to 10-15 degrees above the thermostat and then kick on high, of course it would return to low when the temp got to 5-10 degrees below thermostat. I am capable of such daredevil wiring so if this will help out in the Thermocycling please respond.

Thanks for enlightening us to these overlooked aspects of engine cooling. I do really want and electric pump but I won't shoot myself in the foot for 10Hp....now 15hp and 15ft/lbs I might . Really could you help me/us configure or theorize a way to use the electric pump and eliminate or reduce to acceptable levels the dreaded thermocycling. Thanks.

 

The electric pumps work great on the trucks. The simplest way is to wire it to key power. We installed one here on Beefcakes truck a while back, and he drives his truck every day, so he'd be a good person to ask about one on an everyday truck.

 

Sal,
I'm not even trying to argue your point. Your knowledge of these trucks vastly overshadows mine, you prolly have forgotten more than I'll ever know. I think the points that the WaterPump Engineer dude made are about the Long term effects of thermocycling. If I understand correctly its gonna take quite sometime for the thermocycling induced warpage to show up and noone has been useing these pumps long enough for that to happen yet. If this is the case then its actually a good thing, because if simply wiring it to change speeds (hi/lo) based on water/engine temps can help avoid/prevent this then we all need to do it before its to late. I WANT AN ELECTRIC PUMP but not at the expense of reduced life of my motor. Who's been using using this pump the longest, how long have they been using it? Has it been long enough to discount the concerns of long term warpage due to thermocycling?

 

I wish I could help out more as increased HP is always a good thing in my garage! And I'm sure yours too otherwise we'd not be talking about all this right?

But without me being able to test this in a controlled environment and see the numbers compared to what I remember from the OE days? I'm only shooting from the hip & w/a blind fold on no less.

Let me say these things to aid a bit.

1) Once the motor is at full operating temps, the rad, & the motor have stabilizied. The only real "loss" in running an electric pump (assuming that it's cooling adequate) would be excessive electrical power consumption and increased alt. wear. Also assuming the t-stat is still in place.

2) I'd suggest placing the triggering sensor somewhere in the top drivers side of the rad. (near air filter). And make sure you are able to tune it.

3) When the coolant temps are cold and/or rapidly cooled? This is what creates the increased thermocycles. And yes having a lower pressure & flow at these times would be better than leaving the pump going all out all the time. Assuming that the flow and pressures are adequate to cool? Which by the way you'll never know unless you can monitor cylinder head temps & pressures in the coolant passages. THE DASHBOARD GUAGE is only showing you one piece of the entire puzzle. Don't make the mistake of using this one "buffered" guage as a real indication of what's really happening in the rest of the cooling system.

Keep in mind that any (if any) ill effects of this will not show up til down the road. The more rapid the heat up & cool downs? The more likely the warpage becomes an issue. Again I'm not talking about the temps you see on you dash guage.

For what it's worth, my goal is to own this truck for a number of years vs trading it off in just a few. So I'll stick with the stock 7 blade curved vane impeller for now. Long term (after 80k-100k miles) I might look at welding a plate on the top and bott of the impeller (I have a spare one) and then cutting the OD down to about 95mm.

BTW: If anybody want's more specific info? e-mail me at wydopnthrtl@yahoo.com as I don't check in here as much as I'd like to.


Hope this helps? WOT

 

Thanks for the response.

Cylinder head temps shouldn't be to hard to monitor. Pressure in the coolant passages however is going to be a problem. I'll put a temp sensor on the cylinder head and record some data with the truck in its stock form. When I install my electric pump I'll see if I can reproduce the data by 'tuning' a hi/lo switch. I hypothesize that hi/lo on/off temps and the lo setting voltage should be able to be tuned to get the numbers pretty close.

Thanks again.

 

So after reading all of this the ONLY down side I can see with the electric pump would be a rapid cool down in the pits. (wich I dont do anyway) Cause the way the pump operates it actually slows down the warm up cycle.

NO ??
Dale

 

"So after reading all of this the ONLY down side I can see with the electric pump would be a rapid cool down in the pits. (wich I dont do anyway)

(general response) I'd see nothing wrong with a "rapid cool down in the pits". This would not cause too many ill effects because of how little of a frequency it happens. True that is a large thermocycle. But who would put a Lightning through this 5 days a week and still expect 100k+ miles?
Nobody would. If you run that often I'm sure there would be a hundred other things that would take a higher priority.



"Cause the way the pump operates it actually slows down the warm up cycle."

That's true, but not by very much unless you've reomved the t-stat.

The thermocycles I'm talking about are when sudden heat is applied. Normal acceleration, WOT, coasting down from full speed, the first time the t-stat opens, hot footed driving, cold weather operation.

It's the daily driver Lightnings Im trying to warn. Especially a hot footed driver in the winter time.

The weekend bruisers could get away with it as they put longevity on a back burner vs gaining HP.


Ask yourself this, How come papa Ford (and ALL car mfgs) supplies everyone of their new products with a mechanical belt driven W.P.? And ALLWAYS have?
Suppose they/I/we never thought about using an electric one?

WOT

 

I thought it is because the mechanical is more reliable and the motor company doesn't want to replace heads all of the time. I never thought it had anything to do with heat cycling.

 

Well most new Mercedes/BMWs come with electric water pumps, so that shoots that idea down

I think the reason that belt driven pumps are used is simply they are cheap and reliable.

Why are air tools used in a shop instead of electric?

Coldie

 

Its possible that the time has come for a good electric pump. I think the reason we never had them before is because the water pump isn't looked at as a performance item. Until recently it was just something that quietly did its job and nobody noticed.

Technology moves forward, I can't wait for electric oil pumps .
Dale

 

"I thought it is because the mechanical is more reliable and the motor company doesn't want to replace heads all of the time. I never thought it had anything to do with heat cycling."

LOL You *don't* think it has to do with heat cycling? Well then I'm curious what you think it has to do with?

An automotive waterpump; pumps water to cool/heat the motor and people. If an electric one is used, it's very simple to have the PCM shut down the motor and/or stagger the cylinders that fire in an overheat condition.

And reliabilty comes at a price wether it's an elec. or a belt/chain driven mechanical unit. A tuned electric pump would be even better from a functional standpoint. But when you look at the cost/functionality between the two? A mechanical gets the nod.

Coldie, I've never seen a OE production car that uses an electric water pump as it's *main pump*. A booster pump yes, like on the Lincoln LS. But a main one?? Are you sure? Please show me.
In all fairness to your statement, I have been out of W/P design since early 98. So maybe there is something new on the market? But I'd be supprised if they use an electric one as the MAIN pump.

WOT