Hypertech 160 stat installed.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 12,632
Likes: 1
From: Stinkin Joisey
A $200.00 thingy? How bout a group buy?
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1999 Black Lightning... 1940 of 4000... Traded for: 2001 Silver Bolt... Adopted 3/24/01... Red Line Water Wetter... Wet Okole's... Bed Rug... JL Stage II Ram air... Chipless in Jersey
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1999 Black Lightning... 1940 of 4000... Traded for: 2001 Silver Bolt... Adopted 3/24/01... Red Line Water Wetter... Wet Okole's... Bed Rug... JL Stage II Ram air... Chipless in Jersey
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 723
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From: Proctorville, Ohio
Chuck,
I agree with you 110% on this issue. As far as NASCAR engines go, they run 15:1 compression and last for around 500 - 1,000 miles, just like they're built to do - Max performance and no longevity.
Top fuel cars with 5,000+ HP have solid blocks (or solidifier in the passages) with no coolant because they don't get hot enough and can't stand the flexing of the block the massive HP causes.
Racing fuel? At least 110 octane for the Cup boys, maybe more. You can smell the difference at the Winston Cup tracks. I put forged pistons (TRW 2256's)in my Vette that were silent @ .002" skirt clearance on 93 octane. I stand behind you all the way on this....
And yes, I'm guilty of spending big dollars (to me) on stuff that hasn't put out. Now that I'm smarter, I won't be buying $200 thermostats.
It's strange that the best my truck has ever run was stock except for JL's first program. Hummm, look at Spiro and his 400+ RWHP w/o nitrous.
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Jim
Black '00
#1,757 built 3/30/00
Clear corners
JDM street program
JDM 2# blower pulley (ordered)
J.L. Stage II ram-air
FRPP Oval throttle body
90mm MAF
MagnaFlow Exhaust
I agree with you 110% on this issue. As far as NASCAR engines go, they run 15:1 compression and last for around 500 - 1,000 miles, just like they're built to do - Max performance and no longevity.
Top fuel cars with 5,000+ HP have solid blocks (or solidifier in the passages) with no coolant because they don't get hot enough and can't stand the flexing of the block the massive HP causes.
Racing fuel? At least 110 octane for the Cup boys, maybe more. You can smell the difference at the Winston Cup tracks. I put forged pistons (TRW 2256's)in my Vette that were silent @ .002" skirt clearance on 93 octane. I stand behind you all the way on this....
And yes, I'm guilty of spending big dollars (to me) on stuff that hasn't put out. Now that I'm smarter, I won't be buying $200 thermostats.
It's strange that the best my truck has ever run was stock except for JL's first program. Hummm, look at Spiro and his 400+ RWHP w/o nitrous.------------------
Jim
Black '00
#1,757 built 3/30/00
Clear corners
JDM street program
JDM 2# blower pulley (ordered)
J.L. Stage II ram-air
FRPP Oval throttle body
90mm MAF
MagnaFlow Exhaust
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 668
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From: Mi.
Man,
This is why I like reading this board. Everyone BrainStorming!! I have something to add to this one!
Remember the old saying? "Run your oil HOT & your inlet air COLD." A 160 won't give you any gains, except for a little less fuel economy.
The PCM does look at engine temp when going to open loop or stomping on the go,go pedal!
Your not getting any gains from the PCM running a 160. The only way to really cool the engine down is to make the cooling system more efficient over-all.
Bigger radiator and large electric fans would do better! But, that would not be good. Running an engine at to cool a temp, and you run into things like... Making more friction because the oil is to cool. Heat transfer will be poor in the cylinders = Bad cumbustion or burn rate in the cylinder.
Looking at a picture of a spark plug doesn't show the over all picture. If there was any bennefit to running a cooler t-stat the auto makers would have them in.
Your engine runs more efficient when hot! I have done t-stat testing on our cars in the emissions lab. The 160 opens up sooner, the engine still gets hot due to the capacity of the cooling system! That is why your plug is not looking rich!
Enlarge the capacity, add a larger rad and it will change the look of those plugs.
Just my .02!!
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2001 L. (Silver)
Born on date: 1/17/01
Received: 1/25/01
Best 1/4 time 13.53@103. NGK plugs only.
1,200 miles on odo.
This is why I like reading this board. Everyone BrainStorming!! I have something to add to this one!
Remember the old saying? "Run your oil HOT & your inlet air COLD." A 160 won't give you any gains, except for a little less fuel economy.
The PCM does look at engine temp when going to open loop or stomping on the go,go pedal!
Your not getting any gains from the PCM running a 160. The only way to really cool the engine down is to make the cooling system more efficient over-all.
Bigger radiator and large electric fans would do better! But, that would not be good. Running an engine at to cool a temp, and you run into things like... Making more friction because the oil is to cool. Heat transfer will be poor in the cylinders = Bad cumbustion or burn rate in the cylinder.
Looking at a picture of a spark plug doesn't show the over all picture. If there was any bennefit to running a cooler t-stat the auto makers would have them in.
Your engine runs more efficient when hot! I have done t-stat testing on our cars in the emissions lab. The 160 opens up sooner, the engine still gets hot due to the capacity of the cooling system! That is why your plug is not looking rich!
Enlarge the capacity, add a larger rad and it will change the look of those plugs.
Just my .02!!
------------------
2001 L. (Silver)
Born on date: 1/17/01
Received: 1/25/01
Best 1/4 time 13.53@103. NGK plugs only.
1,200 miles on odo.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,514
Likes: 0
From: Auburn Wa
My .02 one more time
The pistons get there heat from the combustion process not from the coolant :-)
I really doubt the pistons would notice a 20 degree drop in coolant temp, when they are already dealing with a 1000+ from above. Cooling the water jackets down alittle just gives a nicer place to deposit that heat.
If anything, I would think the cooler cylinder walls would run a bit smaller in size and actually quiet the motor down some. Thats kind of a kinky twist on the old "Dont poor cold water into a hot engine or it will seize it up" deal.
See there's always a new way to look at everything LOL
Dale
The pistons get there heat from the combustion process not from the coolant :-)
I really doubt the pistons would notice a 20 degree drop in coolant temp, when they are already dealing with a 1000+ from above. Cooling the water jackets down alittle just gives a nicer place to deposit that heat.
If anything, I would think the cooler cylinder walls would run a bit smaller in size and actually quiet the motor down some. Thats kind of a kinky twist on the old "Dont poor cold water into a hot engine or it will seize it up" deal.
See there's always a new way to look at everything LOL
Dale
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 723
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From: Proctorville, Ohio
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thor01:
If there was any bennefit to running a cooler t-stat the auto makers would have them in.
Your engine runs more efficient when hot! I have done t-stat testing on our cars in the emissions lab. The 160 opens up sooner, the engine still gets hot due to the capacity of the cooling system! That is why your plug is not looking rich!</font>
If there was any bennefit to running a cooler t-stat the auto makers would have them in.
Your engine runs more efficient when hot! I have done t-stat testing on our cars in the emissions lab. The 160 opens up sooner, the engine still gets hot due to the capacity of the cooling system! That is why your plug is not looking rich!</font>
I respect your thoughts and you know that. There are benefits to a cooler T-stat and that's why the L has a 180* instead of a 195* or 210* like the rest of the automotive world. It's for emission reasons the others run so hot.
And yes, the cylinders are efficient when hot, but we don't run 110 octane on the highway to support such high temps, or multiple, electric cooling fans to make the cooling system effective at those temps like the CUP boys do.
And yes, the 160* stats open sooner, because they are designed to. This, as you know, lets in cool radiator fluid to cool the engine, which in turn cools the engine off and it regulates that cycle to do so.
I stand on this one...a 160* stat may fail an emissions test, but should run better on the street and strip with 93 octane, just like all the rest of my cars.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,514
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From: Auburn Wa
Thor01
Times are a changin man, I here the Cup cars like there oil thin and cold. I heard they run there synthetic at about 170 degrees.
Dale
[This message has been edited by Bad as L (edited 05-17-2001).]
Times are a changin man, I here the Cup cars like there oil thin and cold. I heard they run there synthetic at about 170 degrees.
Dale
[This message has been edited by Bad as L (edited 05-17-2001).]
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 668
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From: Mi.
Bad as L,
Your pistons hold heat! That heat helps! If you think heat transfer in the cylinder doesn't make a difference think again.
Do you think when your truck starts up cold, it is getting the same amount of fuel when you start it up when it's hot?
The reason why the PCM adds less fuel to an already hot engine is because it is hot. Less fuel is needed to get a good ignition or burn of the fuel due to heat in the cylinder.
Dave.
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2001 L. (Silver)
Born on date: 1/17/01
Received: 1/25/01
Best 1/4 time 13.53@103. NGK plugs only.
1,200 miles on odo.
Your pistons hold heat! That heat helps! If you think heat transfer in the cylinder doesn't make a difference think again.
Do you think when your truck starts up cold, it is getting the same amount of fuel when you start it up when it's hot?
The reason why the PCM adds less fuel to an already hot engine is because it is hot. Less fuel is needed to get a good ignition or burn of the fuel due to heat in the cylinder.
Dave.
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2001 L. (Silver)
Born on date: 1/17/01
Received: 1/25/01
Best 1/4 time 13.53@103. NGK plugs only.
1,200 miles on odo.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,514
Likes: 0
From: Auburn Wa
Thor01
I know a couple of my posts seemed a little bit "tongue in cheek". I was just trying to have a little fun. I, like a few others on this thread, have already made up our minds about the 160 stat a long time ago. And I would like to say that I do understand the heat deal pretty well.
If I had my way, we would be able to tune our cooling sysems with the computer chip.
Think about it, when your cruising down the highway you could turn up the engine heat to about 200 for great gas mileage, and for drag racing you could leave the line at about 180 for max torque off the line (you need a little heat in those aluminum cylinder heads ) and by the 1/8 mile the computer would lower temps to about 160 to stop detonation (that blower builds heat almost as fast as a nitrous system) Am I a genius or what. Computerized thermostats anyone. LOL
Dale
[This message has been edited by Bad as L (edited 05-17-2001).]
I know a couple of my posts seemed a little bit "tongue in cheek". I was just trying to have a little fun. I, like a few others on this thread, have already made up our minds about the 160 stat a long time ago. And I would like to say that I do understand the heat deal pretty well.
If I had my way, we would be able to tune our cooling sysems with the computer chip.
Think about it, when your cruising down the highway you could turn up the engine heat to about 200 for great gas mileage, and for drag racing you could leave the line at about 180 for max torque off the line (you need a little heat in those aluminum cylinder heads ) and by the 1/8 mile the computer would lower temps to about 160 to stop detonation (that blower builds heat almost as fast as a nitrous system) Am I a genius or what. Computerized thermostats anyone. LOL
Dale
[This message has been edited by Bad as L (edited 05-17-2001).]
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
From: Mi.
Bad as L,
BMW,AUDI already have them!! I respect everyones thoughts on this subject also.
I will just say this. The calibration that is in your PCM's have Fuel tables. When the PCM gets feed back from the sensors, ACT ECT Mass Air Meter & a few others. It follows a Table that has peramiters. In those peramiters the calibrators set a range.
The 160 t-stat and 180 are in, or very close in that range. That means the PCM would not adjust for a 160 after removing the 180. Still the same! Run a back to back at the track on the same day. You will not gain in performance.
As far as NASCAR engines some are still using heavy weight sythetic.
Jack Roush never brakes an engine in on sythetic. Conventional on dyno! Synthetic on race day. I used to work for him here in Livonia. Dyno technician! (1990-1995)
He doesn't run at 170* degrees on any of his cars now! I respect everyones thoughts on this board and only wish the fastest times and the best kills for all!!
------------------
2001 L. (Silver)
Born on date: 1/17/01
Received: 1/25/01
Best 1/4 time 13.53@103. NGK plugs only.
1,200 miles on odo.
BMW,AUDI already have them!! I respect everyones thoughts on this subject also.
I will just say this. The calibration that is in your PCM's have Fuel tables. When the PCM gets feed back from the sensors, ACT ECT Mass Air Meter & a few others. It follows a Table that has peramiters. In those peramiters the calibrators set a range.
The 160 t-stat and 180 are in, or very close in that range. That means the PCM would not adjust for a 160 after removing the 180. Still the same! Run a back to back at the track on the same day. You will not gain in performance.
As far as NASCAR engines some are still using heavy weight sythetic.
Jack Roush never brakes an engine in on sythetic. Conventional on dyno! Synthetic on race day. I used to work for him here in Livonia. Dyno technician! (1990-1995)
He doesn't run at 170* degrees on any of his cars now!
I respect everyones thoughts on this board and only wish the fastest times and the best kills for all!!------------------
2001 L. (Silver)
Born on date: 1/17/01
Received: 1/25/01
Best 1/4 time 13.53@103. NGK plugs only.
1,200 miles on odo.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
From: La Habra, CA
This could go on for ever. I have an engine scanner that works with my laptop and hooks to the PCM. The readings that I get are realtime. With my 180 degree thermostat, the engine temp runs between 182 and 189. That happens on a 55 degree night or during the day up to about 85 degrees. I haven't tested on a hotter day.
I would question the value of a 160 degree thermostat on a forged piston motor that has a tendency toward piston slap. The forged pistons are a lot stronger, but need the temp to expand properly.
Look at the NASCAR guys, they run their engines loose, and run at temperatures up 230 degrees.
On a different note, this scanning program that I have, can test the inlet temps entering the MAF. You can test the effectiveness of ram air and fresh air inlet systems.
I would guess that you could get more performance from working on this thana 160 degree thermostat.
My. $.02
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Red 00"
Pro-M mass air
Swanson Chip
Aluminum Driveshaft
Jay Lincoln Homemade Traction Bars
*******'s bed cover
Wet Okoles
http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4292716723
I would question the value of a 160 degree thermostat on a forged piston motor that has a tendency toward piston slap. The forged pistons are a lot stronger, but need the temp to expand properly.
Look at the NASCAR guys, they run their engines loose, and run at temperatures up 230 degrees.
On a different note, this scanning program that I have, can test the inlet temps entering the MAF. You can test the effectiveness of ram air and fresh air inlet systems.
I would guess that you could get more performance from working on this thana 160 degree thermostat.
My. $.02
------------------
Red 00"
Pro-M mass air
Swanson Chip
Aluminum Driveshaft
Jay Lincoln Homemade Traction Bars
*******'s bed cover
Wet Okoles
http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4292716723
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
From: Lone Star State
Thor 01. Anybody that knows any mechanics knows it doesn't matter how BIG your radiator or how many cooling fans you have if you have. The motor will run at stat temp be it 160 or 210. We are not looking for more fuel and HP out of this swap just to reduce heat load on the motor because heat kills period. The fan clutch engages less which increases economy and power. The intake is cooler which means air charge is cooler, oil and ATF runs cooler which means longer engine and trans life. Common sense guys. The factory doesn't run 4 catalyitic? converters, 4 O2 sensors and 210 degree motors because that is what "performs" best. They do it to meet LEV and make uncle Sam happy. The above does not refer to the L directly.
"I think we should run our best ET's on 105 degree days because hotter is faster". Sorry to get sarcastic but this post has gone astray.
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01' Silver Bullet
Bought 03/31/01
Tire shredding truck
Prototype ram air 5/03 testing...
Retrax cover 5/5/01
"I think we should run our best ET's on 105 degree days because hotter is faster". Sorry to get sarcastic but this post has gone astray.
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01' Silver Bullet
Bought 03/31/01
Tire shredding truck
Prototype ram air 5/03 testing...
Retrax cover 5/5/01
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 0
From: Olive Branch, MS, Memphis Burb
Thor01 is right but tests were done on cars with smaller radiators. He descibed all the L's attributes. A big radiator (26 quarts or 6.5 gallons) in the coolant system and a big fan. I can idle in 95 degree heat at the track and the needle won't hardly budge. Now that I put a POS 18" permacool electric fan in my shroud the gauge will rise to 1/2 way if it's 75 degrees or warmer. I figure I was running around 200 degrees at times. Everything I gained with the electric fan I gave back. I'm now waitng on Jim's 21" 2 speed electric fan to reap the benefits of an electric fan and keep the cool temps like the stock fan with my 160.
P.S. Thor01 most of us don't run the 160 thinking it's a speed mod. It holds down detonation when running chips with extra timing and helps the consistancy of your runs at the track.
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Later,
Chuck
Black 00
Chuck's Lightning Page
[This message has been edited by LTNBOLT (edited 05-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by LTNBOLT (edited 05-18-2001).]
P.S. Thor01 most of us don't run the 160 thinking it's a speed mod. It holds down detonation when running chips with extra timing and helps the consistancy of your runs at the track.
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Later,
Chuck
Black 00
Chuck's Lightning Page
[This message has been edited by LTNBOLT (edited 05-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by LTNBOLT (edited 05-18-2001).]