Neal brings up a good point,How is the cnc measuring the deck ie. off of the cylinder centerline or off of the mounting dowels in the back?Stan

 

If ford just spent one extra minute on each complete engine, over a run of one million units it would cost them almost two years time.

 

WOW, way deeper than I can go, great info all

This seems like text book "known issues" Everyone knows the common Rod to go first is #7, then it seems 8. Everyone agree's the oiling system falls short on especially #7. (I cant tell you exactly why, but I know it to be true) If the same one breaks everytime, obviously there's a problem (flaw)

Then there's the ole' lifting heads, slash blown head gasket/s.
There again we found noticable scorching on numerous area's of decking, and warped heads, I was very close to lifting a head. We all know this is a known issue, not even a question there.

I was not trying to end world hunger here, and I'm very sorry Sal for opening this can of worms now
All I know is when you have 2 metals expanding and contracting at diff temps, (Block and Heads/Iron and Alum) any un-needed space between the two is looking for trouble, especially with a head gasket that has since then been upgraded because too many were leaking.

But then on a freak, someone QUALIFIED checks a new Motor, and finds it also out of wack, NOW THAT OPENS A WHOLE NEW CAN OF WORMS. I am not saying Ford F-up, but how do I NOT KNOW, what Ford feels is exceptable, is not exceptable once you add a hundred HP or so. Even if we go on the POSSIBILITY it was a reman Block, (which I'm sure it wasn't), again it has to make you wonder how many ever so slightly warped heads, are bolted on out of decked blocks, AND WHAT ARE THE RESULTS ?

Old school, new school, they both clearly have advantages,
but one thing is for sure, Sal and The Engine Shop checked everything, and put everything where it belongs, and that gives me great hope on a much longer life on this motor.

And now after reading Neal's post, I believe more than ever what we see and found, COULD BE PREVENTED.

Ruslow
I can not answer your questions, I can only say this is a serious Race Engine Shop, prob the best we got, he's been doing it a long time, he builds the real deal (from oval to show to the 7sec Beast) He knows what he's doing. 23 Years of building motors will do that to a Company.

 

Not to flame or anything.but really if you are removing metal deck etc.more than likely you are not blue printing.[unless the block had extra]since the 'print' gave a deck height and you could be going below that height.anyone who is in the machining end of the business knows to build to print you have to be at those measurements.I know I am being **** about it but it is like someone saying they have a 3/4 cam in the car ,to which I reply I have a WHOLE cam in mine so you are runing on only 6 cyls?I blueprinted the boss block I have but to 65 289 specs since the deck is .011 shorter.STan

 

@ STan, I use to say that myself, (I got a 3/4 Cam) hehehehe

Stan,
Bro I do not claim to even remotely know what any of this is,
I do know alot, but I talk in very harsh basic terms. I can only say what I know, how I know how to say it. (WOW, there's an example, hehehe)

I know mine was out of wack
I know a new one tested was also out of wack
I know mine was ready to lift and blow
And I know now it's back where it belongs
Done by two of the Best in the Business (Sal + Rich)
Done with Hi-Tech Equiptment
By Pro's (23 years of Machining in the same building)

Anyway I look at it THIS IS A GOOD THING

I myself can honestly say Blue Printing has confussed me for years, since we're on the web lets see what they say it is.

Blueprinting

Blueprinting an engine consists of several machine shop operations including but not limited to:

Bore & hone cylinders (usually w/Deck plates).

Re-size connecting rods (big end & sometimes small end).

Turn & Index crankshaft.

3 angle valve job cylinder heads (to a specific width & place on valve face).

Fitting valve guides to a specific clearance.

Setting up valve springs to the right installed height & pressure, both open & closed.

Surfacing block and cylinder heads straight & with the right RMS finish.

Race engines require even more blueprinting----such as; cc'ing heads, machining for exact deck, block clearancing for crankshaft, & cam to rod clearance, porting & polishing, shot peening, heat treating,---the list goes on & on.
------------

I guess there are hundreds of diff opinions and versions of exactly what Blue Printing is, and what you get. All I'm saying is I KNOW WHAT I GOT, by who, and why I got it. My guess is a lot of the built motor owners can NOT say for sure what they DID.
And I continue the Thank Sal and Rich for being so honest and helpful in explaining and showing me every issue every step of the way. AND working with me BIG TIME in resolving each and everyone.

 

This is an interesting thread. The question I would have is first I am sure there are allowable tolerance due to mass production therefore are these tolerance derived from what Ford has currently specified as “stock”?

In other words, are these tolerances acceptable for a stock motor but unacceptable when you begin to modify the stock design parameters by adding more hp items to the motor which then cause more stresses?

Have any stock motors shown symptoms of having issues with the # 7 bearings, lifting heads etc? When I state stock I mean just that, no pulleys added, no juice added, no tunes added etc, just your ordinary stock motor like I have in my L.

I know our transmission with the stock motor are running close to the edge so could it be very likely are stock motors are running close to the edge due to tolerances specified by the engineers in order to keep cost down in production BUT that the design tolerances are acceptable for a “stock” motor?

I know from my limited experience that generally nothing has to be perfect “unless” you are going to be running at the edge of the envelope then every 0.001 or 0.0001 is the difference like night and day.

 

Rob I am NOT flaming your machinist not by any means.Just like I said I am **** when it comes to this[since I do tool and die work].
I just love going to the car shows and listening to quite a few say they have done this and that,and I look at the engine and know otherwise[how do you deck a block and save the stamped numbers?]gotta love the want to bes!Stan

 

I know Stan, Thanks

Your **** ???
I got like ADD written all over me, HA HA HA
I'm like a hawk at Sals shop, he always says Oh oh here goes Rob with his spy shots

Yesterday I forgot my Camera, and mentioned wanting some pic's of a few things, his wife Lisa said here Rob use Sal's camera,
(he gave her the look of death) hehehehehe

I use to think Blue Printing was simply doing exactly that,
documenting each clearance, so if you ever wanted to build the identicle motor, you had the specs

 

No what about the '03-04 blocks that are supposed to have more webbing and beefier block.
Do they have the same problem?

 

Yes

 

ADD= Attention Deficit Disorder (can't pay attention)
OCD= Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (doing things over & over. ie kinda like being ****, 'cept you can't stop)

 

BTW, Brooks is it possible to have BOTH, cause I sure seem to.
We'll call it AODCDD, hehehehehe

 

Not sure what you mean by "cool down". If you're talking about heat from the casting process, then yes, they are cool. If you're talking about heat from the machining process, then there may be some but a lot of cooling fluid is used so I wouldn't think that would cause an issue.

 

If your cam sprocket has a 2 inch radius ( the L's are bigger than that, i.e. less effect on timing) and you machine 10 thou off the block, you'll change your timing by .3 degrees...

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

 

I was in powertrain for 6 years... and can tell you that Ford is beyond **** about the tolerances for thier engine machining. (don't confuse surface finish with other dimensions like position and perp.)

It all comes down to one thing. And I'll keep saying it til the day I die.

*Thermocycles*

This is why break in is so important, and not squeezing a "stock" motor too hard with either nitrous, rpms, or cylinder head pressures (combustion). The thermocycles that are normally seen have been taken into account. And actually we build in safety factors! All the guys who are pushing it past the "design intent" are in the "you gotta pay to play" zone.

There are some rules of thumb I;ve formed over the years based on my experiences. Both in the professional field and from observing what typically blows at the tracks.

Take it easy the first 500 miles. Change all the fluids regularly. Don't run it hard til it's warmed up & don't over rev it. 25%-to-35% of a power increase is all you can really ever expect to get out of an otherwise stock motor. (and expect it to last)

Rich