Well Tim believe it. I datalogged my IAT2 before and after the porting with the same 4lb pulley. Then I went to a 6lb pulley. What I found is almost the same temps between the non-ported with 4lb and ported with 6lb.

Maybe it's my phenolic spacer

 

\sweet jesus Tim, while I respect your opinion generally I have to disagree with this.

As stated in the previous thread where this was discussed indepth. the ported eaton results in a COOLER discharge.

a 4# eaton will ahve a hotter discharge than a 6# ported eaton.

the graph you have is OLD AND OUTDATED. It doesn't reflect the ported design. it simply shows the stock eaton, here we have a ported eaton as indicated by the title of this thread.

It is CLEARY DISTINGUISHABLE.

Your honor may i approach the witness and refresh thier memory.
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...&highlight=Tim

Thank you your honor.

 

"In closing, the witness here sees the results, results from numerous test subjects, but still refuses to believe it's true. How reliable is the opinion of this witness I ask you? On this point, not very.

"NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO FAIL TO LOOK" (L-Menace)

If the only change is the porting, then the porting must at least contribute to the lower discharge temperature. If not cause it directly

 

 

I said: "No simple port job can change the physics of what is happening in the supercharger, . . . the difference is too great to be explained by port reshaping. Something else is going on there."

Indeed, if Sal's theory is correct, something else is in fact going on there. A third variable has been introduced -- the airflow pattern across the intercooler core.

The porting, then, may not change S/C outlet temps one degree. It could be that 100% of the observed IAT2 drop is due to Sal's theory that a ported blower directs the outlet air across more of the core (my alternative guess is measurement anomaly).

So, until proved wrong, I stand behind:
* my statement that porting cannot significantly change properly measured outlet temps of the 112, a mature S/C design
* the applicability of the Eaton-supplied 112 delta T outlet temp charts. They are not "distinguishable" in any significant way. Porting cannot change them much, if at all (rotor design is the primary determinant)
* the fact that outlet temps with a 6 lb pulley are off the chart, whether ported or not

There is a big difference between S/C outlet temps and IAT2 temps.

But that seems to be an academic point -- lower temps are lower temps, whether due to phenomena in the plenum or due to true lower outlet temps. So if a 6 lb pulley on a ported SC produces the same IAT2 temps as a non-ported 4 lb, from a detonation standpoint, it would in fact be close to as safe.

 

This coming from an examining attorney who cannot distinguish between S/C outlet temps and IAT2 temps.

And who has failed to explain his erroneous assertion that porting has any impact whatsoever on the posted Delta T charts -- in fact failing to distinguish them in any meaningful way, much less provide support for his bold "clearly distinguishable" statement.

Ladies and gentlemen, this rank amatuer is trying to trick you with one of the oldest and cheesiest logical tricks in the book -- the false dilemma. "Either you believe that the porting changes outlet temps or you are calling all of the people who report lower IAT2 liars."

Nonsense, ladies and gentlemen, pure nonsense. My dimwitted colleage, ignoring the expert testimony of Mr. Manella, his own witness, has failed to take into account the very possibility that I laid out in my opening statement, that there is something else going on here.



"None so cheesy as those who are desperate enough to resort to flawed logic." -- Tim Skelton, Esq.

 

Tim you lost this one. The air flowing over more of the intercooler is a direct cause of the porting. They are one in the same. Guess lawyers are good at playing with words to try to look right.

 

Tim appears to be stating that the blower outlet air temps themselves remain heated from over spinning with a 6 pounder. He seeming admitted that the end result of more intercooler surface area cooling the temps back down to a non-ported 4 lb lower would offer the same margin safety. (Did I understand you Tim? I work with lawyers daily as an insurance adjuster).

Why must we stand on a point for the sake of standing on it (Tim)? If the ported blower offers the same or better IAT2 temps, and this is what the motor ingests, THEN WHO CARES? Why NOT run a 6lb lower with an Apten ported blower, ESPECIALLY if it offers the same margin of safety that a non-ported 4 pounder offers?

Yes, I know, it's all about winning, and that's what has become wrong with our system. End of rant......

 

Nope.

l-menace said: "a 4# eaton will ahve a hotter discharge than a 6# ported eaton."

Yes and no. Hotter "discharge?" No. "Discharge temp" typically mean S/C outlet temps.

Lower IAT2's? More or less the same it appears, but close enough to where the statement is essentially accurate from that perspective.

l-menace said: "the graph you have is OLD AND OUTDATED. It doesn't reflect the ported design. it simply shows the stock eaton, here we have a ported eaton as indicated by the title of this thread.

It is CLEARY DISTINGUISHABLE."

Nope. The graph is accurate. Delta T charts are done on a test bench. The temp rise across the blower is measured. Porting might change the graph by some small amount, but not enough to make it "clearly distinguishable."

The problem is that the Delta T chart does not take into account the effects of the intercooler. IAT2s are after the intercooler. Lower IAT2s does not necessarily mean that the blower has become more efficient. The intercooler loop may have become more effective -- as in a better heat exchanger or, as is apparently the case, better airflow across the core.

I stated that I did not "buy" the dramatically lower IAT2s because I could not see that porting could change the basic efficiency of the blower that much. That is correct. I did fail to take into account the apparent effect of better flow across the core -- but did clearly state that "something else [other than a fundamental improvement in blower efficiency] is going on here."

A more correct challenge to my post would have been: "While your Delta T charts are accurate, and your fundamental premise that increased blower efficiency is not causing the lower IAT2s is sound, your dumb *ss fails to recognize that the porting directs the airflow across the core in a more effective pattern, thereby reducing IAT2s such that a 6 lb ported blower is has about the same net effect as a non-ported 4 lb blower." Instead, menace attacked the chart, incorrectly claiming that somehow the porting changed the Delta T curves.

But I agree that "lawyers are good at playing with words to try to look right," and that is exactly what I am doing here. And I suspect that menace will chime in shortly with some of his own wordplay. That's why I like him -- he's a worthy adversary.

 

Blown, you have hit the nail on the head and correctly interpreted my post(s).

Menace was right, but for the wrong reasons.

Who cares? I do. Menace does. When you argue for a living, the argument itself is as important as the outcome. To the analytical mind, the whys are as important as the whats.

 

Another chart:

112 drive HP requirements, like the Delta T, increase at an increasing rate. So, even if we pull the extra heat from the 6 lb'er back out through increased core contact, the extra drive HP is a loss that we will not be getting back.

This is not a safety/reliability issue, nor is this a reason not to do it. It's really just a "by the way," demonstrating another reason why overspinning the 112 produces such sharply decreasing marginal returns per added pound of boost.

Just to be clear here, based on the IAT2 data, I am sold on the porting/6lb combo as a viable alternative to a non-ported 4lb setup.

 

however, as my learned colleage can't dispute is that he is NOT CERTAIN that the air exiting the s/c is the same temperature or not. That is doubt, and if there were a criminal case Reasonable doubt.

The IAT is reading a lower temperature, that is simple and true. How? well that's simple the air around it is cooler.

how? well the only thing that changed was the porting,

Makes sense to me.


Tim, I'm not attacking you, simply disagreeing.

 

Gee, all these big words

Bottom line

IF you know how to deal with the heat you produce from over-spinning the Eaton, there is power to be had

IF you have the truck tuned for your mods on your truck you should be okay.

But IF you blow the motor with a 6lb lower on a stock bottom, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

That being said, I've been running the Apten port job with a 6 lower and a little smaller upper with no problems.

Probably just jinxed myself and will blow the motor going to work tomorrow