David, I do agree that me asking the question does have some kind of "taint" to it. But just because I am a vendor, should not mean that I don't have a right to ask a question. I've seen MANY products over the years come and go. I've seen new items pop up, that were bogus, or wastes of money, and have watched people waste that money on them. And I've said nothing about them most of the time. That does not mean that I feel JLs new intake is a "waste of money", I am just making a general statement. JLs intake looks very nice, I just wanted to know why the need for such a large plenum after such a small inlet. You say the TB isn't the weak link in the system, the intake is. I'm not arguing that, on a STOCK setup. But now you've got a blower with a twice as large inlet opening. I don't see how the TB is no longer NOT a weak link.

I'm sure as you've stated, you feel I asked my question with some kind of ill intention. You can believe what you like, but as I stated before, I don't have anything to gain from JL not selling these intakes.

 

can we get back on topic?

this thread has potential and i would like to learn something.

so enough with the bitchslapping eachother and lets learn and get along!

 

doesn't a phenolic spacer create its power more so due it its ability to add volume to the intake then to seperate the intake from the heat.

 

I never said anything close to that. I have even claimed that KB was prompt in their warranty service with the product I had problems with.
I don't understand the second part. KB warranties their blower for rpms of less than 13000 rpms. It says so in THEIR brochure!

I never said they lied. I never said they misled. I believe their #'s!

That is true. Why should I be satisfied when there is something better out there? Are you satisfied with your stock eaton? If someone offered you a built motor and a free turbo setup would you take it?

You are an idiot and you can't even show anywhere where I have bashed KB.

 

Not to interrupt any cussing and discussing, but the level of pressure drop created by a restriction is directly proportional to its length. You would get more flow through 49.5 ft of 1/2" water hose with a 0.5 ft 1/4" restrictor on it than you will get with a 50 ft of 1/4" hose. Restrictions are cumulative.

 

Finally someone said it......Pressure Drop

You can't compare and engine or a turbo or a supercharger to a damn vacuum cleaner.

These things don't SUCK....they create a pressure drop and then the atmosphere rushes in to fill it up and it does so at only 14.5 to 15 psi. If you look at things like this, it might help....but then again it might not .

Nothing drives me crazier than to here somebody say "Why port the heads when you can just turn the boost up"

 

Well nice to see the only thing you do is call names, you cant even be man enough to state your feelings or thoughts, all you do is dance around the bush.

At least Im clear where I stand.

Lets see how long it takes for you to figure out that for anything other than a 1/4 mile warrior the Novi is a bad move and even at that the Procharger would be a better choice. If you do decide to do a Turbo, I'll be happy to show you how its done.

Peace and Goodnight

 

Ok, sal.

I'm not here to fight or take sides. If it were reversed I would have said the same thing. I have commented on your behalf and JL's. I have purchased parts from both of you.

It just seems to be a pattern of late, like I mentioned with the PCM reflash and other posts. I'm letting this go with no hard feelings. I'm no moderator, but, I wasn't going to sit by and watch the slingfest start without getting my .02 worth. It did look tainted to me and I'm not saying tuners shouldn't ask questions.

If it were a new vendor or supplier I could see the questioning. It's JL, the man has earned his respect on the board with excellent parts and customer service. Not in the business to rip people off. It's his product and he can explain the results of the testing when and if the product goes up for sale.

The K/B is larger and more efficient s/c # for #. The current stock upper plenum was tuned for optimum flow for a eaton 112. Not the improved air flow of the K/B. I bet if johnny made one up like that for a ported eaton it would net improved results also.

 

It is clear where you stand. You attack w/o proof. You said I,"have a extreme dislike for KB" Not true! You also said, "you flat out dislike...the customer service you have received." Not true! You also said, "In alot of your posts on several boards youve made it extremly clear how you feel KB doesnt stand behind their product" Not true! You also said,"Even in this post you make references that KB lied about the gains they saw on a throttlebody" Not true!

How many times can you bring up bull**** and think it will stick? You can't back up any of those statements. You are an idiot for accusing me of things you can't back up.

How can you say a Novi is a bad move? You don't know what I use my truck for. I have a nitrous system on the truck already any low rpm power loss will be made up with nitrous. I don't think at 30 psi I'm going to have much problems with power anyway.

 

Pressue drop is that lost to friction (fiction pressure). The faster (higher velocity) a fluid (air) moves the more the friction. if you have 2 psi fiction presure and 14.5 psi pressure differential driving air flow, pressure to move air is now 12.5 psi. Also why you get less water through a 50 ft water hose than a 25 ft hose, friction.

 

BigBob
Yeah I screwed up but it doesn't matter nobody's reading that stuff anyway.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Tuner War

 

 

"You've been around long enough to know that the T-Body isn't the weak link in the system! If that were the case, the single blade would be showing much higher improvements. It doesn't."


That statement is totally untrue and I have proved this. I beleive the TB is a weak link in the system on slightly to highly moddified engines. The reason the big oval throttle body hasnt shown any increases in power is becasue it is TOOO big. Kinda like putting a 850 carb on a small block that needs a 650. Put on the 650 and get some power, put on the 850 and get nothing.

A friend dynoed his truck with oval TB and got like 3 horses and almost no torque. Now for the kicker, I dynoed a ported and polished stock TB(done by me) and made 8 horses and 15 Lbs of torque. Go figure. This was an average of two runs with and without the ported TB. Why did the TB make so much power if it is not a restriction of any kind? I have the dyno sheet to prove the results. If your interested PM me and I will show it to you. By the way my truck only has a 4lb pulley, chip and filter.

 

I think we are making this out to be harder than it looks – a storm in a teacup if you will. I will attempt to prove mathematically that changing the volume of the upper plenum ultimately has no effect on the amount of mass that goes into the intake of the supercharger.

When a fluid is in motion, it must move in such a way that mass is conserved. To see how mass conservation places restrictions on the velocity field, consider the steady flow of fluid through a duct (that is, the inlet and outlet flows do not vary with time). The inflow and outflow are one-dimensional, so that the velocity and density are constant over the area.

Let that duct be our upper plenum. The inlet A1 (our throttle body) is constant. The outlet A2 (the outlet of the upper plenum) is constant. Applying the principle of mass conservation what mass comes in over A1 goes out of A2 over a time interval represented by Delta t. The flow is steady so that there is no mass accumulation.




This is a statement of the principle of mass conservation for a steady, one-dimensional flow with one inlet and one outlet. The equation is called the continuity equation for steady one-dimensional flow.

So, if A1 (our throttle body) is constant, meaning we did not change the volume of flow, then regardless of the volume of the duct (our upper plenum) the volume of flow over A2 (the outlet of our upper plenum) will not change. A1 will always equal A2 no matter what the volume of the duct is because of the law of mass conservation.

I'm not saying JL's new upper plenum doesn't make more power I'm just saying it's possible but not probable.

I'm going to get back to work now before I get fired.

--Steele

 

Dyno numbers are one thing, ET's are another..

Dyno your truck 10 times in one day and dont change anything and you will not get the exact same numbers each time. Telling us that you got 8 hp and 15lbs of Tq just from changing a tbody isnt relevant, you could have had a Tq converter spike or any number of things happen to cause the number differences. No flame intended, but take your combination to the track, run a few times under the same conditions and then change something and see how it affects your ET's.

Ricers around here get 4-10hp from a intake kit all the time, but when they go to the track, they run the same or even worse.

If you think the tbody is such a restriction, then you should ask Lingenfelter Corvette what they used on their latest creation that went 8.90's They used an off the shelf GM tbody.

All the power that has been made in todays modern automobile has been made with different intakes and head/valve design, not the tbody. Just look at the Ford Windstar with its dual plane intake with variable intake runners, its uses the exact same tbody that is has used for years, but with that engine it makes 100 hp more than it did before the intake design.

Hope that analogy helps

AYYA