Which is the Real ‘Racist’ Party?
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From: Chicago
Not too sure if this is reality or not. Quite a few people I see did not buy into the McMansion BS, and still stayed the same from 1994 to 2004, same house, same class of car ( did not go BMW to try to keep up with the jones ), no large expenses. I would image they had more than a few wage increases in that time frame.
If people are funding the "American dream" on credit, they are doing something stupid.
I see stories in the media where they describe the family I made note of above, but the images with the story are the McMansions. the typical thought of middle class does not have a 4,500 sqft house.
I see this as the start of the polarization of the public against each other, by making the "family of simple means" out to be a victim of the evil corporate banks.
I am sure there are the case of those just starting out, but this gets back to you do not hang yourself at the end of a rope on a rickety stool, and hope all turns out well.
Americans over time have given up on saving, it is all about consuming. What happened to 3 months of expenses in a safe liquid investment ?
You do not give this up as the down payment on a house.
If you have a kid, and this is hard to do, you should have thought twice about having kid(s). Procreation does not remove being responsible for yourself, it adds to it.
No cutting alone is not going to fix everything, but it would be a good place to start. Saying cutting alone won't fix it, and keeping things status quo only makes the hole deeper. That is what is going on for the past few years, only the revenue keeps dropping and the spending keeps going up.
True, but seeing the problem at the start is a better idea.
Why did the country need to borrow billions of dollars to do a lousy job of repaving the roads ? This was wasted money, that the interest is killing us now.
It did get a ton of union members off the bench earning for a short time again, to allow them to restart unemployment. Great idea, borrow money to allow a large block of people to start pulling off a give away program.
If people are funding the "American dream" on credit, they are doing something stupid.
I see stories in the media where they describe the family I made note of above, but the images with the story are the McMansions. the typical thought of middle class does not have a 4,500 sqft house.
I see this as the start of the polarization of the public against each other, by making the "family of simple means" out to be a victim of the evil corporate banks.
I am sure there are the case of those just starting out, but this gets back to you do not hang yourself at the end of a rope on a rickety stool, and hope all turns out well.
Americans over time have given up on saving, it is all about consuming. What happened to 3 months of expenses in a safe liquid investment ?
You do not give this up as the down payment on a house.
If you have a kid, and this is hard to do, you should have thought twice about having kid(s). Procreation does not remove being responsible for yourself, it adds to it.
No cutting alone is not going to fix everything, but it would be a good place to start. Saying cutting alone won't fix it, and keeping things status quo only makes the hole deeper. That is what is going on for the past few years, only the revenue keeps dropping and the spending keeps going up.
True, but seeing the problem at the start is a better idea.
Why did the country need to borrow billions of dollars to do a lousy job of repaving the roads ? This was wasted money, that the interest is killing us now.
It did get a ton of union members off the bench earning for a short time again, to allow them to restart unemployment. Great idea, borrow money to allow a large block of people to start pulling off a give away program.
The problem of debt in our country isn't soley due to repaving roads. We have a lot more infrastructure that needs immediate attention (have seen estimates of $12 trillion).
For the past 30 years we have been on a slash taxes and spend like crazy frenzy. We have had 2 wars...going on 3 with Libya. At no other time in history have we been at war and made huge tax cuts at the same time. That is my concern. In addition, what has the huge tax cuts done for us? Made more people scream for lower taxes? For the better part of a decade, our economy has been fragile or bad. Granted 9/11 didn't help this problem but it isn't the only reason for our problems either.
I agree that people need to bear the responsibility for their own lives and finances. Lots of things need to be looked at to make us solvent.
Right now the game the Republicans are playing with the debt ceiling is bad business. They may think they are going to score brownie points but it is going to drive the markets crazy. Our credit outlook with Standard and Poors is falling. Instability is the last thing we need. They were more than willing to jack up the debt ceiling whenever Bush needed it but now it is out of hand? If we default, we may get back to Jimmy Carter interest rates.
Both Republicans and Democrats have had the keys to the car and gotten us stuck in the mud. While I don't think the Democrats have all the answers, it does frustrate me to hear everyone blame them for the problems we face considering the Republicans bear at least an equal amount of blame.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 141
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From: Chicago
If you are concerned about how people are doing financially, just remember they need to look in the mirror. They are the people responsible for their spending, not me, not you not Uncle Sam. Until last year Uncle Sam could not tell us how to spend our money it was entirely up to us to determine how and what we spent our money on. My family was one of the last on our block to have cable, because it was too expensive. Now we don't have a data plan or have the ability to send texts from our cell phones. Yet my broke brother-in-law and his wife has every possible option on their phones. They can't even pay to fill up their cars with gas, but they can make sure they have all of the options on their phones. The have direct tv and spend over $120 per month for it. He even admits they don't watch even a quarter of the channels they have. If they opted for a lower package then they wouldn't be able to brag about how many channels they have. I see this played out over and over with the many people I interact with. They spend way too much then complain that they can't afford to put anything into savings. It really is the lack of financial education for the populous that is destroying the middle class, not the desire of the wealthy to be more wealthy. Continued later.
You are totally right. I don't dispute what you are saying. I also don't think it is so much that they don't know how to be fiscally responsible as much as they choose not to be.
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,511
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From: Under the flightpath of old ORD 22R
This is not just isolated to this area, some roads I frequent around the country are in worse shape now ( < 24 months ) then they were prior to starting. Our government "doing stupid things with tax money since 1913"...
In 1964, Congress adopted significant tax reductions in response to an initiative from the Kennedy and Johnson administrations.
The Revenue Act of 1964 was aimed at the demand, rather than the supply, side of the economy," said Arthur Okun, one of Kennedy's economic advisers.
The Revenue Act of 1964 was aimed at the demand, rather than the supply, side of the economy," said Arthur Okun, one of Kennedy's economic advisers.
The number of 47 times since 1962 are not voted on bill increases, but temp measures by the U.S. Treasury, that allow the US not to default.
The debit ceiling was restored prior to the end of the FY.
This procedure is allowed by the Liberty Bond Act of 1917.
Your posts are about as accurate as the Huffington or NPR...
....<snip>....Both Republicans and Democrats have had the keys to the car and gotten us stuck in the mud. While I don't think the Democrats have all the answers, it does frustrate me to hear everyone blame them for the problems we face considering the Republicans bear at least an equal amount of blame.
1. Number of years in control of the house and senate since 1952 ?
- That would put the bulk of the blame on the Democrats.
2. Amount of increases & additions to entitlement programs ?
- Same answer.
3. Amount of spending on Defense ( historically the 4th largest line item in FY spending ).
- Until the 111th congress, that would have been the republicans ( who had to give on other programs, so I guess they are part of #2 above ), but the 111th congress did a pretty good job of expanding the defense budget, considering they are classified as "pot smoking hippies".
Who developed and pushed through a health care law to cover an additional 15% of the uninsured ? How much is that costing over 10 years ?
- And how much is the health care line item in the FY spending going to be reduced due to this law ?
Oh, another one, tax increase ( that is going to slap the true middle class in the face ) with this, while having 3 fronts open and having an economy that is still not healthy yet. Want to see the next source of defaults if they start collecting this tax money - look back to the health care law.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Chicago
Then they should have spent the money on that infrastructure. The roads I saw ground up were in better shape then they are now, 18 months after being repaved. Major north - south state highway is a wash board, and already falling apart.
This is not just isolated to this area, some roads I frequent around the country are in worse shape now ( < 24 months ) then they were prior to starting. Our government "doing stupid things with tax money since 1913"...
Might want to fact check this statement.
Time for more fact checking ( you really need to look at stuff before you post these "facts" ) :
You mean the ONE time it was raised during the 8 years by $ 800 B ?
The number of 47 times since 1962 are not voted on bill increases, but temp measures by the U.S. Treasury, that allow the US not to default.
The debit ceiling was restored prior to the end of the FY.
This procedure is allowed by the Liberty Bond Act of 1917.
Your posts are about as accurate as the Huffington or NPR...
Defaulting on payments is not the only way, a second limit increase will also have an impact on the rate that the bonds are auctioned. Default was not the cause of Carter era interest rates.
Define blame ?
1. Number of years in control of the house and senate since 1952 ?
- That would put the bulk of the blame on the Democrats.
2. Amount of increases & additions to entitlement programs ?
- Same answer.
3. Amount of spending on Defense ( historically the 4th largest line item in FY spending ).
- Until the 111th congress, that would have been the republicans ( who had to give on other programs, so I guess they are part of #2 above ), but the 111th congress did a pretty good job of expanding the defense budget, considering they are classified as "pot smoking hippies".
Who developed and pushed through a health care law to cover an additional 15% of the uninsured ? How much is that costing over 10 years ?
- And how much is the health care line item in the FY spending going to be reduced due to this law ?
Oh, another one, tax increase ( that is going to slap the true middle class in the face ) with this, while having 3 fronts open and having an economy that is still not healthy yet. Want to see the next source of defaults if they start collecting this tax money - look back to the health care law.
This is not just isolated to this area, some roads I frequent around the country are in worse shape now ( < 24 months ) then they were prior to starting. Our government "doing stupid things with tax money since 1913"...
Might want to fact check this statement.
Time for more fact checking ( you really need to look at stuff before you post these "facts" ) :
You mean the ONE time it was raised during the 8 years by $ 800 B ?
The number of 47 times since 1962 are not voted on bill increases, but temp measures by the U.S. Treasury, that allow the US not to default.
The debit ceiling was restored prior to the end of the FY.
This procedure is allowed by the Liberty Bond Act of 1917.
Your posts are about as accurate as the Huffington or NPR...
Defaulting on payments is not the only way, a second limit increase will also have an impact on the rate that the bonds are auctioned. Default was not the cause of Carter era interest rates.
Define blame ?
1. Number of years in control of the house and senate since 1952 ?
- That would put the bulk of the blame on the Democrats.
2. Amount of increases & additions to entitlement programs ?
- Same answer.
3. Amount of spending on Defense ( historically the 4th largest line item in FY spending ).
- Until the 111th congress, that would have been the republicans ( who had to give on other programs, so I guess they are part of #2 above ), but the 111th congress did a pretty good job of expanding the defense budget, considering they are classified as "pot smoking hippies".
Who developed and pushed through a health care law to cover an additional 15% of the uninsured ? How much is that costing over 10 years ?
- And how much is the health care line item in the FY spending going to be reduced due to this law ?
Oh, another one, tax increase ( that is going to slap the true middle class in the face ) with this, while having 3 fronts open and having an economy that is still not healthy yet. Want to see the next source of defaults if they start collecting this tax money - look back to the health care law.
I am looking at our current situation.
The debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1962. 10 increases were on the watch of Bush Jr. under which most of the time was a Republican Congress. Why wasn't there an outrage then?
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Under the flightpath of old ORD 22R
Sorry, I thought you brought up something about the past 30 years ???
No, there was only 1 bill passed during GW Bush's 8 years to raise the debit ceiling ( 47 was a typo )
I only found 1 bill passed to raise the debit ceiling in the 8 years of GW Bush. If there are 10 bills passed, please provide the year and bill number.
This is not NPR or the Washington post, can't put up BS and expect it to fly.
I only found 1 bill passed to raise the debit ceiling in the 8 years of GW Bush. If there are 10 bills passed, please provide the year and bill number.
This is not NPR or the Washington post, can't put up BS and expect it to fly.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 141
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From: Chicago
I stand corrected...it has been 10 times since 2001. It was raised 4 times under Clinton...7 times under Bush Jr and 3 so far under Obama.
Date Debt Ceiling Change in Debt Ceiling
(billions of dollars)
April 6, 1993 4,370 +225
August 10, 1993 4,900 +530
March 29, 1996 5,500 +600
August 5, 1997 5,950 +450
June 11, 2002 6,400 [104] +450
May 27, 2003 7,384 [105] +984
November 16, 2004 8,184 [104] +800
March 20, 2006 8,965 [106] +781
September 29, 2007 9,815 [107] +850
June 5, 2008 10,615 [108] +800
October 3, 2008 11,315 [109] +700
February 17, 2009 12,104 [110] +789
December 24, 2009 12,394 [111] +290
February 12, 2010 14,294 [112] +1,900
Date Debt Ceiling Change in Debt Ceiling
(billions of dollars)
April 6, 1993 4,370 +225
August 10, 1993 4,900 +530
March 29, 1996 5,500 +600
August 5, 1997 5,950 +450
June 11, 2002 6,400 [104] +450
May 27, 2003 7,384 [105] +984
November 16, 2004 8,184 [104] +800
March 20, 2006 8,965 [106] +781
September 29, 2007 9,815 [107] +850
June 5, 2008 10,615 [108] +800
October 3, 2008 11,315 [109] +700
February 17, 2009 12,104 [110] +789
December 24, 2009 12,394 [111] +290
February 12, 2010 14,294 [112] +1,900
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Memphis
Yes technology has made everyone's lives better and worse.
My Android phone will do more than my Commadore 64 did 25 years ago.
I don't have to feed the horses that took me to town...although it may be cheaper than filling the gas tank.
Still the middle class is largely funded by credit and the hope their job is there. Most people don't have anywhere near enough money socked away to survive past a paycheck or two if they lost their job.
There are many people that went from middle class to homeless in a pretty short time.
I have little sympathy for those that are generation after generation living off of welfare. I know they are out there and that is something that needs fixed. Every once in a while you hear of a success story but there are a greater portion of them that end up mooching off of the state or guest of one of our fine chain of Gray Bar Hotels.
The reality is that things are pretty decent for most but this has eroded over time and things are getting worse. At some point we do have issues that have to be met. Cutting everything isn't going to bring down this debt we have as a nation. It may stabilize it a bit but at some point we need to raise taxes before it hits the point that everyone can pay 100% of their income in and we still run deficits.
If you are seeking to shore up your finances, you look to lower your expenses and increase your earnings. Doing one but not the other will rarely get you to the goal you need to reach.
My Android phone will do more than my Commadore 64 did 25 years ago.
I don't have to feed the horses that took me to town...although it may be cheaper than filling the gas tank.
Still the middle class is largely funded by credit and the hope their job is there. Most people don't have anywhere near enough money socked away to survive past a paycheck or two if they lost their job.
There are many people that went from middle class to homeless in a pretty short time.
I have little sympathy for those that are generation after generation living off of welfare. I know they are out there and that is something that needs fixed. Every once in a while you hear of a success story but there are a greater portion of them that end up mooching off of the state or guest of one of our fine chain of Gray Bar Hotels.
The reality is that things are pretty decent for most but this has eroded over time and things are getting worse. At some point we do have issues that have to be met. Cutting everything isn't going to bring down this debt we have as a nation. It may stabilize it a bit but at some point we need to raise taxes before it hits the point that everyone can pay 100% of their income in and we still run deficits.
If you are seeking to shore up your finances, you look to lower your expenses and increase your earnings. Doing one but not the other will rarely get you to the goal you need to reach.
And the middle class being funded by credit? Credit is a good thing for responsible people, who provides that credit? Wealthy people do. Who encouraged this bad credit crisis? Democrats.
How do you go from saying "things are pretty decent for most" in the same sentence to "this has eroded over time and things are getting worse"? Kinda need some
on this one.We have already gone over the 'we need to raise taxes' in another thread. You lost.
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,511
Likes: 10
From: Under the flightpath of old ORD 22R
I stand corrected...it has been 10 times since 2001. It was raised 4 times under Clinton...7 times under Bush Jr and 3 so far under Obama.
Date Debt Ceiling Change in Debt Ceiling
(billions of dollars)
April 6, 1993 4,370 +225
August 10, 1993 4,900 +530
March 29, 1996 5,500 +600
August 5, 1997 5,950 +450
June 11, 2002 6,400 [104] +450
May 27, 2003 7,384 [105] +984
November 16, 2004 8,184 [104] +800
March 20, 2006 8,965 [106] +781
September 29, 2007 9,815 [107] +850
June 5, 2008 10,615 [108] +800
October 3, 2008 11,315 [109] +700
February 17, 2009 12,104 [110] +789
December 24, 2009 12,394 [111] +290
February 12, 2010 14,294 [112] +1,900
Date Debt Ceiling Change in Debt Ceiling
(billions of dollars)
April 6, 1993 4,370 +225
August 10, 1993 4,900 +530
March 29, 1996 5,500 +600
August 5, 1997 5,950 +450
June 11, 2002 6,400 [104] +450
May 27, 2003 7,384 [105] +984
November 16, 2004 8,184 [104] +800
March 20, 2006 8,965 [106] +781
September 29, 2007 9,815 [107] +850
June 5, 2008 10,615 [108] +800
October 3, 2008 11,315 [109] +700
February 17, 2009 12,104 [110] +789
December 24, 2009 12,394 [111] +290
February 12, 2010 14,294 [112] +1,900
Might want to check those dates, found a few of them were the house bill dates, not the actual date legislation was passed
The Senate leadership expressed strong reluctance to include a debt limit increase in the supplemental appropriation bill. Instead, on June 11, the Senate adopted a bill (S. 2578), without debate, to raise the debt limit by $450 billion to $6,400 billion.
At that time, a $450 billion debt limit increase was thought to provide enough borrowing authority for government operations through the rest of calendar year 2002, if not through the summer of 2003. With the possibility of
default looming over it, the House passed the $450 billion debt limit increase by a single vote on June 27. The President signed the bill into law on June 28 (P.L. 107-199, 116 Stat. 734), ending the 2002 debt limit crisis.
At that time, a $450 billion debt limit increase was thought to provide enough borrowing authority for government operations through the rest of calendar year 2002, if not through the summer of 2003. With the possibility of
default looming over it, the House passed the $450 billion debt limit increase by a single vote on June 27. The President signed the bill into law on June 28 (P.L. 107-199, 116 Stat. 734), ending the 2002 debt limit crisis.
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Well cell phones suck for one. Identity theft is easier. Facebook has made my generation a bunch of no lifes. It also makes us take things for granted and in the event of a power outage that is very evident.
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,511
Likes: 10
From: Under the flightpath of old ORD 22R
Really, having one makes me more productive at work.
Actually if you want to see how easy it was before, take a read of Frank Abagnale's book ( the guy the book catch me if you can was based on ).
They guy became a doctor, a lawyer, and a pilot for kicks to fly for free.
He was a pro at forging checks, and credentials, something that is next to impossible to do today with technology.
Frank did say he would have stole $ 20M instead of $ 2M in today's world, but that is supposition on his part.
Think about who the target really would be. A person like you or me who has limited resources, or someone like a CEO, where they can bleed an account for 10K / month without being noticed ? The joe blow on the street has little to be concerned about with ID theft, as the person stealing that ID had better well know what they are getting into ( why steal the ID of a person that is behind on child support, it could be anyone with this ).
No argument on this point, I actually like to call it the "look at me" generation. Everyone thinks they are owed 15 min of fame, for nothing.
Do you know we did when we had a useless piece of information when I was a kid, we kept it to ourselves.
Actually if you want to see how easy it was before, take a read of Frank Abagnale's book ( the guy the book catch me if you can was based on ).
They guy became a doctor, a lawyer, and a pilot for kicks to fly for free.
He was a pro at forging checks, and credentials, something that is next to impossible to do today with technology.
Frank did say he would have stole $ 20M instead of $ 2M in today's world, but that is supposition on his part.
Think about who the target really would be. A person like you or me who has limited resources, or someone like a CEO, where they can bleed an account for 10K / month without being noticed ? The joe blow on the street has little to be concerned about with ID theft, as the person stealing that ID had better well know what they are getting into ( why steal the ID of a person that is behind on child support, it could be anyone with this ).
Do you know we did when we had a useless piece of information when I was a kid, we kept it to ourselves.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Memphis
Identity theft is actually harder in many aspects.
Facebook has many more perks than negatives.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 195
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From: Crestview, FL
Totally agree about Facebook/Myspace.
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Senior Member
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From: Western Massachusetts
To me the internet is great because we don't need to see each other. We can base our impressions of others on content of character rather than color of skin, or appearence.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 141
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From: Chicago
Well technology has hurt the unskilled workers in the US. It used to take forever to move an item from point A to point B, now it is as quick to move an item from Beijing as it is to move it from Chicago to wherever in the world you want it. Thus companies have no reason to pay people the salaries demanded in the US when they can make the same thing cheaper elsewhere.
Call centers were all here in the US as International calls would have been cost prohibitive. With VOIP and such they can route calls via India or the Phillipines as easily as here at home.
Companies like Wal-Mart have been able to cut every cent out of moving product and easily undercut most small businesses thus running them out of town.
Technology has given us the ability to have a 24 hour news cycle and while being knowledgeable of our surroundings is important, it has led to sloppy journalism too.
Again, it all depends on perspective.
Call centers were all here in the US as International calls would have been cost prohibitive. With VOIP and such they can route calls via India or the Phillipines as easily as here at home.
Companies like Wal-Mart have been able to cut every cent out of moving product and easily undercut most small businesses thus running them out of town.
Technology has given us the ability to have a 24 hour news cycle and while being knowledgeable of our surroundings is important, it has led to sloppy journalism too.
Again, it all depends on perspective.
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yes cell phones are nice to have, but facebook is stupid. Infact alot of people are cheating on their spouse because an old boyfriend/girlfriend contacetd them