Hmmm, interesting thread.

I'd say China and Russia are moving in a good direction by returning to their original currencies. I think it is good to have everyone's economies separate so that if there is trouble in one, the others dont follow. Or in reality, if our dollar folds we dont want China to follow or vice versa. True, the one who fails will probably die but better than taking everyone down with them.

The US does not just print more money when it wants to buy something (it can but it is not very smart). Paper money only represents real currency. If you print more money without getting more of the resources to back it, then the value goes down. If we could just print money without the value being diminished then we wouldn't have a national debt.

Bingo, I did that with pesos once. Made a whopping $1 and figured I'd have to spend more money than I was willing to gamble to actually make a significant amount.

Haha, no I'm not going to quote the entire essay but it was definitely and interesting read.

Ehhhh, not so sure about that for some people. I think at universities some people trade their common sense for knowledge...at a highly inflated price. What you learn in college can usually be found by anyone in a book. A friend of mine had to drop out of high school to work so that his family would be able to keep their house but he knows more about chemistry than many college students. In fact, he has even tutored a few in his spare time. Only difference is he wont get a piece of paper saying he spent over $20K to be edumacated.

I still laugh at the planet-killing pickup truck quotes. I get better mileage than friends with little volvos and stuff and I still have a pickup bed to haul my mountain bike, dirt bike (the real polluter with its blue smoke trail of oil) or kayak.

 

Actually, I’m well aware that there are many educated people here on F150 Online. They need not be herringbone sports coat wearers, beard scratching types, ivy leaguers or even college graduates. There are, to name a few, tradesmen, salesmen, home makers, computer programmers, chemical engineers, farmers and students here, all of whom I see as educated in their own right. My point was not that this forum is frequented by a bunch of dullards, but that it’s unlikely intellectual elites, who might classify people who may not have been groomed in an ivy league school as simple minded, would frequent this forum.


It’s good to know that you haven’t jumped on the “global warming” bandwagon, but you have to admit that among democrats/liberals/progressives the prevailing belief is that our behavior must be modified in order to save the planet. Have you not noticed that people who do not agree with the skewed conclusions on man made global warming are considered simple minded by the people pushing for legislated behavior modification?

I’m not familiar with the passive aggressive high school pop psychology bit, so if it’s something that I’m doing, it’s inadvertent. What I’m doing is highlighting what I see as the arrogance with which some people brush off the opinions of another. I hold strong beliefs but also understand that there is always the possibility of a different conclusion.

Thanks for the offer on the shrink, but if I were going to see a shrink, I wouldn’t travel all the way to Boston to do so. I feel fortunate to have reached a point in my life that I feel pretty grounded. There isn’t anything an ivy league, left coaster can say that will change that.


I see a different picture than you when I think of the ordinary people who do extraordinary things.



I believe that America is exceptional because of generations of people who have contributed to it.

Christmas is coming quickly so if you take issue with the words I, or anyone else, use, feel free to send me Hooked on Phonics as a gift. I’ll be conversing like John Forbes Kerry instead of George W. Bush in no time.

It’s interesting that it’s assumed people like me are merely parroting what some conservative celeb is spouting every day. It sounds as though you might listen to more of these right wingers than I do. I do listen to talk radio. Beck and Limbaugh. In the van. Between jobs. Most of the time, while they are on the radio I have other things to do.
I think that there are some positive aspects to people on the radio, left and right. They can help people realize that they are not alone. They can help people better understand what they are feeling.

It wasn’t until several years after he was gone, and I’d had some years to grow up, that I really wished that I’d been more interested in what my grandfather had to say. There is so much I could have learned from him, but when he was alive, I thought I already knew everything. I feel fortunate now, to have the opportunity to talk to a lot of different people. Of different ages. Of different nationalities. Of different races. Of different walks of life. I listen to what people say. I learn from what they say. My main influences aren’t people on the radio. My main influences are my family, my friends, our customers, the people I interact with every day.

That’s interesting that I would make the same point that Palin did in her book. I haven’t read it. I’m not much of a reader. I’m most comfortable reading Car and Driver, or Motor Trend. There are a lot of books that I’d like to read, but I’m a slow reader. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I have read more books in the past couple years than I have for a long time. I’m currently reading The Forgotten Man. It’s good so far. At this rate I might have it completed by spring.

I don’t know a whole lot about what’s happening with cable news. We have the cheapest cable package available, I think it’s six bucks a month. There are no cable news stations on our tv. Never has been. I do sometimes see clips online.

If the USA isn't the "superpower" some other country will be. There is no fear involved. Just fact. If you are ok with that, then ok. I believe too many people have and do contribute to this country to make it the place that people from around the world want to come to and prosper, to be ok with that. If the people of this country, and the people around the world decide that it’s time for a one world solution, for central planning, there isn’t a thing I can do about it. I’d just like the opportunity to contribute to our country, like my grandfather did, and like most of our families did.

I believe that our country does best when it leads by example. We’ve done that with innovation, and also by slogging through turmoil to come to an equitable resolution. My dad is a very respectable man. He took parenting seriously. We all turned out pretty good. He was pretty emotionally messed up when he and my mom split up. We were all still kids. He took care of all of us by himself for a while. He made some mistakes. He made situations worse some of the time. He did enough of the right things as well, and in the end, my mom and dad have some pretty respectable children. Our country was once respected, despite making situations worse at times. I’m not about some fictitious super hero. I believe in many cases our country has earned respect. Respect for the freedoms that we preserve. I’m not interested in seeing our country being the worlds police, but rather like a sibling, who looks out for the best interest of their brothers and sisters. How do the track records of the other possible “superpowers” look?

If our way is power and profit, then lets change it. The government can’t do it for us. We, the individual citizens of this country, have to do it. We can make wiser choices that don’t benefit those seeking power and profit. It’s something that we’ve tried to do in our home for years. If our standard of living needs to change, it should be done voluntarily, not though mandates.

This isn’t a fight to be won. It’s an issue of retaining and in some cases regaining honor and respect. My life experiences don’t leave me with the negative view of our country that some seem to have. I see flaws. Unmistakable flaws, but I still see the good of the American people. I see people who will continue to help to support and maintain freedom throughout the world. I see people who will continue to bring salvation to those in the world who need it. I believe that it is at times necessary for our government to extend help to others on our behalf. We have an enormous land mass, many resources and a society containing many gracious, charitable people. I believe that these are but a few of the reasons that our country is the best suited to be a “superpower”.

You’ve really impressed people here with your intellectual prowess. I’ve clearly been “owned”. I may be out of my league here. I didn’t go to Princeton or UCLA. I didn’t go to any ivy league school. I don’t have a P.H.D, don’t have a masters. I don’t have a bachelors or even an associates. I just have a G.E.D. I have a lifetime of experiences that have shaped by opinions and beliefs. A lot like tens of millions of other Americans.




If you think that I’m simple minded I guess there’s nothing more I can say. It just seems a little arrogant, in an elitist sort of way.

 

 

Wit, I think you missed the point the post he was referring to when he delivered his immaculate pearls of wisdom was a direct result of what came across as an insult to simpletons such as myself and the ivy leaguers.

I know that wasn't your intent as his was, but I was insulted as well as the wordy one.
Don't feel owned

 

So I come back from dinner (Gramercy Tavern in NYC , if anyone is in that part of town and is looking for a good place, that's it), go up to my hotel room, check emails, and go to a couple of sites I frequent. Then I came here and saw that you responded.

And it was a very nice response, beautifully written, insightful, clear in the points you make . . .

until you got here:



You say you're not familiar with the passive aggressive thing and if you engaged in it it was inadvertent so I'm going to take you at your word and believe you had no idea what you just did there. You wrote this wonderful post that expressed your feelings and opinions, highlighted your own personal experiences to clarify them . . . then you place a pause between the last two paragraphs, and then used guilt (framing my first question about simple mindedness into an accusation to garner pity (none of that done directly by the way) and then followed it up by basically saying I'm arrogant and elitist, again, all done indirectly. Either way, it's a form of manipulation directed at both me and the reader.

And you know what? I'm fine with that, but by doing that you essentially negate everything you wrote before it.

BUT, I'm going to ignore that last paragraph, assume you didn't do it on purpose, (which is why I'm actually taking time to point it out to you), and forget I read it:



and concentrate instead on the very nice reply and try to respond in kind.


There is an assumption that so called "intellectual elites" view anyone who is not ivy league "groomed" as dullards, or worse. I am assuming that the term "cheer monkeys" is at the heart of this, or at least has something to do with it. But before I get to "cheer monkeys" I would like to point out the irony of the use of the term "intellectual elite". The words themselves, their definition is meaningless. But for some people to see others a certain way and label them (in this case a classification such as intellectual elites), well, they are acting no differently than someone who would label a person or people white trash, or moronic underclass, or whatever. These are labels and labels are most often used to classify something we don't understand or fear. This is exactly the kind of thing that goes on when we classify people as red or blue, left or right, liberal or conservative - the latter terms, incidentally, have become so convoluted that they have nothing to do with what those words actually mean.

As for "cheer monkeys", that was not directed at anyone of a particular educational background, or socioeconomic level, it's directed at anyone who cheers something on fervently or fanatically, who supports a cause or ideology or entity without justification or reason other than "it is". Heck, you see tons of "intellectual elite ivy league types" screaming they're the best or they're this or that, just because it's them. Every socioeconomic class, every classification of person or group has its "cheer monkeys". In the case of "supporters of this country", the so called "cheer monkeys" who scream "We're number 1!!!" "USA #1", etc., and do so without any reason other than "Because we are!!!! Because we're the USA!!!" Okay, but what's the reason? Ask them that and what usually follows is a threat . . . sort of on a smaller scale, but like such threats as "We ought to level the middle east and turn it into a glass parking lot!!!! Because we rock!!!!" You've seen these people. They engage in group hysteria, at whatever level, tag along and cheer - or threaten, or express ideas, or whatever - en masse, and without logical, reasoned, reasons for doing so.

By the way, you'll be interested to know that I got the term "cheer monkeys" from someone who was not educated beyond community college, who was not an intellectual elitist. Actually it was someone very close to me. She was in the dining room as a group of people were over at our house watching the UCLA-USC game. My friends, of course, were backing me and were rooting for UCLA, even though half of them never attend the university. So, after a Bruin touchdown, and everyone going crazy, my friend, who was not a football fan, asked why everyone was going nuts, whereupon a bunch of drunk guys screamed how "we" were #1, UCLA was #1. She asked why. "Because we're great, man!!!!" She asked a couple of times, got varied, drunken, mindless, albeit supportive to the team, screamed responses. She looked at all of us and said. "You're all a bunch of cheer monkeys." Hence, the term was born. (A funny response by someone, I don't remember who, as soon as she finished saying "you're all a bunch of cheer monkeys", said - "We're Bruins, not monkeys" It was funny at the time. You had to be there. Somehow, cheer bruins just isn't as funny as cheer monkeys).

Cheer monkeys is not to deride any type of person, it is to point out that backing, supporting, going crazy about something is all well and good, but you kinda need a reason for it.

In the case of red v. blue, liberal v. conservative, etc., etc., etc., it has degraded into nothing more that "us versus them" !!!!!! for no real reason. (And I would offer to you that that is exactly what the people in power - politicians, media, pundits, et al., - that is exactly the way they like it to be because it allows them to stay in power. It keeps the public occupied and never really solves any problems, which, in turn, keeps them (the politicians, etc.,) relevant and in power. (remember what I said, it's all about power).


On the flip side, have you not noticed that people who believe in the global warming scenario are called, idiots, buffoons, fascists, etc., by Rush, Glen, Laura, and Company? Let's look at this differently however. Let's split those who believe and those who don't believe into two groups. And not believers v. non believers, but rather, let's take all the average folks, both believers of global warming and non believers and put them over in one group for a moment. These are the everyday Joes. People like you and me who get up every morning, kiss the wife (or husband), kids, and dog goodbye and go to work. They're not captains of industry, they're not investors of oil and gas hedge funds, they're just regular folks who are trying not to lose their homes, their jobs, their lives. Some believe in global warming, some don't. That's one group.

And then, let's take all the politicians, pundits, energy people, corporations . . . anyone with a real financial stake in the issue that you believe one way or the other. Doesn't matter if they agree with the global warming theory or not. We are going to put then in the other group.

The regular folks, they have no stake in it other than the simple reality that they believe one side or another based on the information given to them by the pundits and such in the other group. They will live their lives accordingly based on what they believe after listening to what's told to them. And what do they do, to live their lives accordingly? They either buy stuff, or they don't. They alter their lifestyles in one way or the other. But what it all comes down to is that they make financial decisions, on either side of the belief table, that directly benefits those folks in the other group, the ones who have a something to gain by keeping the argument alive.

And as the argument continues and the pundits, and politicians, and companies continue to present arguments one way or the other - yes it's really man made, no it isn't - (by the way, notice I said arguments, not facts) people who listen to this take it more and more to heart. And in the process it becomes personal to them. Some think the conclusions are skewed, some think they're valid, but it no longer becomes an argument based on fact (if there ever were any to begin with), it becomes like all things such as this has become . . . one party is right and the other is wrong. A form of paranoia sets in - you're cheating with your numbers!!!! You're lying about this or that! - on both sides, when in fact, none of that is the actual issue at all. These days, and this is a lot like medicine, people only see symptoms, and only treat the symptoms. In the process, no one actually goes further to actually find out causes. They're too busy arguing over symptoms. It becomes a cause and effect loop. Everyone gets focused on, and argues over, the effect. And the things they see, the things they view as effects / symptoms, may indeed be happening (Are there numbers to prove global warming? Sure there are. But what's the cause? And how long are those effects really lasting?) All these points get argued upon over and over and no one looks to see why. And even worse, the arguing has gotten so bad and taken over so much of the issue that if real research were done to find out why, no one will accept it because they have become too divided over the effects.

Oh, and this: " . . . you have to admit that among democrats/liberals/progressives the prevailing belief is that our behavior must be modified in order to save the planet." I respectfully disagree. I know that's what the pundits and such want us to believe, but unless I were to see conclusive numbers that prove that, I'm not buying it. I know a lot of democrats who think global warming is man made. I know of a lot who are not sure, and I know of a lot that are just like me, democrats who think that it's not man made. By the same token I know republicans (and independents) who think it's man made and think it isn't. So, based on what I see, rather than what is told to me, or as is usually the case is browbeaten into me by those with an interest that I keep arguing with my neighbors, I can't agree with your statement.

It's very easy and convenient to pigeonhole everyone into two groups (and two groups is all you need to create conflict - and what I'm eventually getting to here is that conflict is good . . . for business). Two groups, us vs them, is all you need. Anything else becomes complicated, and who wants complicated? What you want, especially if you're one of the people in power, is for two groups to exist, two groups who are diametrically opposed. If you have that, you've got a job for life.

It's not about what ideal is right or what ideal is wrong, who is right or who is wrong, nor which idea or ideas are correct and which are not. None of that matters. What matters is that there is a perceived right and a perceived wrong. Everything else takes care of itself. In order to control anything or anyone you must have a reason for control to exist. Only then will people let you have control. All of this we see before us, the red v. blue, the conservative v. liberal, whatever, it's at the level it's at today because because we let people present us with the most simplistic ideas and ideals that require nothing more of us than to take a side . . . without really understanding why it is that we are taking a side and why we are fighting.

You get your neighbors in a room with you. Say some are conservative, some are liberal. If you avoid talking about religion, and politics, you'll discover that they're just like you. They have the same anxieties, fears, likes, dislikes, as you do. You probably like the same beer, go to the same chinese restaurant, think the new checkout girl at the supermarket is cute. You all love your children, want them to do better than you, you all want them to be good people. That guy who is "red" is the same as the guy who is "blue". And it's the same all across this country. If you put everyone in the country in one room (granted, its a hypothetical, because you know that 33% are going to fart, and that cold get ugly), but let's say you put them all in a room and have them just share their lives and they will all pretty much be the same and have a lot in common. Because in the end, we are the same.

It's ideologies that separate us, it is not who we are that separates us. We have been conditioned to believe, via marketing, that we have to believe A or B, and that those who believe B are better than than those who believe A, and vice versa. Because that's good for business. Good grief, you see this demonstrated every day, over subjects as inane as I use a Mac and you're an idiot because you use windows . . .

Don't think marketing has completely turned us into "monkeys"? Do a google search for videos of people breaking down the doors of stores and trampling each other to death just to buy crap they don't need on "Black Friday". Who does that? Well, millions of people. We have been conditioned to do stuff like that, to fight amongst each other, to take sides against each other - and if you wish to look at it in a patriotic sense, we have become Americans fighting against Americans who are now at each others throats. And over what?

So, long answer short . . . although it's too late for that . . . it's not what democrats. liberals, progressives believe that's skewered or false, and it's not what republicans, conservatives believe that is skewered or false. What you need to consider is why are we arguing about what's false or not. Really ask yourself why. Look around you and at who we are all arguing with/against and ask why.

Yeah, we've dealt with this already -

Agreed. But may I suggest that it isn't so much arrogance . . . see those many paragraphs above. ^^^

That was me, being a smart ***. You may find it interesting to know that, for the most part, I do not hold psychiatrists, or the field of psychology in high regard . . . and I have an advanced degree it.


You might be surprised, but go ahead . . .

By the way, quick note. It's interesting you would use this picture. It was taken by Charles Ebbets. It is of iron workers while they were building the RCA building. This is now known as Rockefeller Center. I used to work in television for about 20 years. I go to this building almost every time I visit the city because I have friends that work there. I always go to the top and take the requisite tourist picture (I posted them, from my last trip here, on this forum a few months ago). In fact, I just wrote about this in an email to a friend of mine today. This picture has a lot of meaning for me, I know it well. I know exactly what you feel when you see it. Trust me when I say I get it.

Passive aggressive . . . but continue . . .

Basic cable is six bucks? I want to live where you live.

Honorable, no doubt. As far as wanting to contribute, were that the case for everyone then the world - or this country at least - would be a better place. Unfortunately, such is not the case.

As far as "some other country being a superpower and if everyone is o.k. with that then o.k." (paraphrased), your response to me about "communism in the U.S.A." and "asking if I was O.K. with that" (again paraphrased) is at conflict with that. If I may, and this is personal, but just about everything I have read that you have posted (especially when you start a thread) runs contrary to that.
If I remember, or at least the one I remember most recently was about "If you can't open their minds, open their heads! Is this the future of our country?". I mean, come on, that's a little off-putting, kind of frightening actually? What am I supposed to make of that? Most of what I saw in your posts was fear based (like that title) or presented in such a way that conservatives were victims of some sort. You had one about are you ashamed to be a conservative? And did the laundry list of ugly things (which is why I did the same thing in my response) I was just mimicking you. I figured you'd get that. Maybe you see yourself as openminded and magnanimous, but your posts don't read that way. This one did. This one I can see and understand. But your others . . . not so much. That's why I lashed out at you in my prior response. I was, frankly, tired of reading it. If you had written posts like this, that were thoughtful and open and showed consideration . . . well, so it goes.

With regard to other countries being a superpower. In the long term history scheme of things, it's inevitable. Many countries have led before us. All have fallen. We will too. (Probably sooner rather than later I suspect, but that's another post). The concept of superpower, as it is held today, is absurd, but then, that's on the purely theoretical level. In reality, it is not as grandiose, or important, nor does it really have any meaning. On one level, can war break out, could we nuke each other off the face of the earth? Sure, but why would we? China owns our asses for the time being. If they became a "superpower" nothing would change other than the shift of certain burdens one way or the other. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. Damn right! You've got people rioting about the world bank, and the IMF, and what all of these people don't realize is that, in terms of the bigger picture, all of that happened a long time ago. The Chinese are us. We are the Chinese. The dollar may still be the currency used in 65% of governmental trade settlement transactions, some day it will be less. But ultimately, whatever it is, all of these guys are connected. It doesn't matter. The business of "governments" is going to go on because it has to.

Now, are there "rouge" (Hi,my name is Sarah Palin!) interests that can create problems? Yup. Always have been, always will be. And if you can keep everybody focused on them, and drag it out, you can conduct business as usual.

"How do the track records of the other possible “superpowers” look?" They look like what marketing interests want you to see. Look, dude, I am all for the Disneyesque wouldn't it be great if hard work and good intentions made a difference, but things don't work like that any more. And I'm talking on the bigger level here. On the smaller level they can. Right now I live in a small town, rural town, and it's amazing what the locals do with hard work and good intentions. I have also lived in a city of 12 million people, traveled around the world, been involved in marketing decisions that effect millions, and I can tell you that, large scale, there are a handful of people and organizations who make decisions that can and do render useless all the good intentions and hard work when we're talking national/global scale. I wish it wasn't so. But it is. Does that mean it will never change? No. But it won't change if it's business as usual, if everyone is kept busy fighting among themselves rather than finding out what they have in common. And, as is human nature, things won't change or get better, until they absolutely have to and there is no other choice.



In the abstract, I do not disagree with you. But see above as to what I think the reality of it is. Hey, it could just be that I'm old and my time is up and my ideas are ancient. But as you said, when we are young we think we know it all. As we get older we realize we didn't. Maybe a positive attitude is best used by youth and cynicism is for the aged. But experience, which you get with age, tells me different.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. No degree is worth the paper it's printed on. I know a lot of people with more degrees than me (I have a few), and a lot of them haven't got an ounce of common sense. Of those that do, probably half of them are dysfunctional outside of their specialty.

Look, I vacillate. I'm an idealist sometimes, a cynic others. But more than anything else, I'm a realist. I see things differently than a lot of folks do. I tend not to fall in with the masses and take sides. As far as politics goes, I'm registered (D) but only because at the time, it was the lesser of the two evils. Politicians . . . no matter what their party, no matter what they profess, no matter what the pundits tell you . . . they are all at the same guy. They will promise you everything, they deliver nothing. If you follow the record, read all the promises, review all the hype . . . the situation in the country has continued to get worse with each successive groups of people running (supposedly) the country. It's not about parties. It's about something that has gotten out of control and beyond the scope of business as usual being able to handle. The more we fight and argue and let all this pettiness distract us from the fact that ALL OF IT is being done wrong by everybody . . . it won't change, we'll just keep disagreeing and getting nothing done.

Sadly, the only way it's going to change is when it all collapses. No one is going to make the hard choices because it's too "uncomfortable". So we keep on the current path until the path can't support us. It's coming. Sooner than you think. And that's too bad.

 

I learned more from that one single post than some of the courses I took at University during an entire semester.

that was good, pardon my French.

 

 

Yes, another brilliant post. Dividends of an ivy league education. (Please, it's not necessary to psychoanalyze that last sentence. It's just a compliment.) Oh, and I'm sure that a lifetime of experiences might have some affect as well.


I I'm not quite over the hill yet, so perhaps I am still a bit of an idealist. It's a bit frustrating to hear that so many just want to throw in the towel. It seems as though a country that has made it through so much would be able to survive what's up next. I'm not 'such' a young man any more. I'm becoming jaded and calloused. I'm sure I'm just a few years from becoming a full fledged realist.

 

Good luck with that.

 

Wit: I understand your frustration with the way America is going (economically, morally, and otherwise). Don't worry, it is all going the way the Lord said it would. All great nations fail as they decline morally.

The worst part of this is who will be the world's police force when we do fail? The answer is in the title of this thread.

 

Oh, oh, It appears I am going to run out of wall space for the autographed copies of the originals...

 

History repeats itself time after time. Communication is faster and better now, so things just happen Quicker. It will turn out well in the end.

 

No worries dude. You're totally covered.

 

Wikileaks confirms my earlier post. Just released today: http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/po...as_disappeared

A Russian "oligarchy run by the security services" is not something for the United States to trust. The USSR was essentially the same.

 

China has been breaking into American company's computer systems since at least 2002 and Saudi Arabia has been funding Al Qaeda.

Lot's of great information about our friends (enemies) from Wikileaks: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/wo...nted=2&_r=1&hp

Too much more to list.