Loan is approved for the big 3
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Now after receiving "bail out" money from Canada, Chrysler has received money equal to or more than their 7.5 billion dollar purchase price by Cerberus earlier this year. If you need a loan that equals the purchase price of your business within months of purchasing it... the business deserves to fail.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 282
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From: Columbia Station, Ohio
Bankruptcy did wonders for the steel industry...Bush should have let them file ch 11. Whatever the reason for their downfall, be it unions, bad products, blah blah blah, they still failed, while others did not.
I agree with some arguments on both sides of the bailout, but the simple fact is that they failed. Say what you will about the banks, but the banking industry worldwide had to be bailed out, not just a select few companies. No other major automakers around the globe are being bailed out. Just something to think about.
That Ford is solvent without any current bailout money further emphasizes the point that GM and Chrysler should have been left for dead.
I agree with some arguments on both sides of the bailout, but the simple fact is that they failed. Say what you will about the banks, but the banking industry worldwide had to be bailed out, not just a select few companies. No other major automakers around the globe are being bailed out. Just something to think about.
That Ford is solvent without any current bailout money further emphasizes the point that GM and Chrysler should have been left for dead.
While I agree with you about certain aspects of "bad business decisons" per se, it can have a devestating effect on those who are not now, nor can really be member of the work force. They were promised a good retirement, worked hard for decades to get it, and then saw it vainish.
Tim C.
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From: Starkville Mississippi
I agree, unions have not been 100% bad, only about 90%. They are a horrible burden on a company. They are nothing more than a leech but I dont think they're THE reason why the industry is failing. There is too much overhead cost in marketing, R&D,etc that needs to be cut. But the first step to cutting costs is to separate from the UAW. If people quit, fine, they'll find someone else to work. If you think they're necessary, you need to take a trip down south. We have large, thriving industry down here with no unions and people love it! Automotive needs to move south and the south needs to stand firm in its no union attitude. If that happens, Ford would be thriving.
Last edited by Green_98; Dec 21, 2008 at 07:10 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 443
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From: Massachusetts
here comes mommale with his infinite wisdom again
I agree, unions have not been 100% bad, only about 90%. They are a horrible burden on a company. They are nothing more than a leech. If you think they're necessary, you need to take a trip down south. We have large, thriving industry down here with no unions and people love it! Automotive needs to move south and the south needs to stand firm in its no union attitude. If that happens, Ford would be thriving.
I agree, unions have not been 100% bad, only about 90%. They are a horrible burden on a company. They are nothing more than a leech. If you think they're necessary, you need to take a trip down south. We have large, thriving industry down here with no unions and people love it! Automotive needs to move south and the south needs to stand firm in its no union attitude. If that happens, Ford would be thriving.
Since you seem to think you're so smart, why doesn't "the south" offer the same incentives to American car makers that they've offered to the foreign ones? Alabama has given land, tax breaks and provided job training for the car makers there at a cost of $377,000 per job that was created. The big three pay for health insurance for their retirees, guess who pays for the health care of Toyota and Nissan retirees? You do. Guess who pays for the job training? You do. Guess who paid for the land for the south to have a thriving auto industry? You did. Guess what will happen when the south stops with the incentives? Those manufacturers will pull out because they have nothing invested in those plants.
You have any answers for that genius?
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 599
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Since you seem to think you're so smart, why doesn't "the south" offer the same incentives to American car makers that they've offered to the foreign ones? Alabama has given land, tax breaks and provided job training for the car makers there at a cost of $377,000 per job that was created. The big three pay for health insurance for their retirees, guess who pays for the health care of Toyota and Nissan retirees? You do. Guess who pays for the job training? You do. Guess who paid for the land for the south to have a thriving auto industry? You did. Guess what will happen when the south stops with the incentives? Those manufacturers will pull out because they have nothing invested in those plants.
You have any answers for that genius?
You have any answers for that genius?
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,762
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From: Windsor, Ont.
Yeah, all this union bashing.
Like when the Big 3 went to the unions and said, "Look guys, we're in deep poo here, you don't like us, we don't like you, let's put our differences aside and try to make it through this. Can you help us out?" And what did big brother union say?
"No concessions."
The first rule of parasitism is don't kill the host. Is the UAW totally to blame? No. Are they part of the problem? Yes.
Like when the Big 3 went to the unions and said, "Look guys, we're in deep poo here, you don't like us, we don't like you, let's put our differences aside and try to make it through this. Can you help us out?" And what did big brother union say?
"No concessions."
The first rule of parasitism is don't kill the host. Is the UAW totally to blame? No. Are they part of the problem? Yes.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,895
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From: Starkville Mississippi
No you dont need my permission to participate...where did that come from? How did you get that from my origial quote? Whatever, your explanation for that is probably more outrageous that the first.
We're not arguing socialism vs capitalism. We're simply talking about business succeeding. So now my position sounds like socialism I guess. I doubt our way of doing business would have ever led to the situation we're in right now. Someone fails down here, too bad, you're going to crash. We don't need unions. I don't know what the perfect answer is, but if Detroit did business like the non-union industries, you and I wouldn't be paying for this horrible crisis that we're in now. And even though these incentives offered by the state will never be pulled, they probably wouldnt leave anyway. Where are they going to go? certainly not up your way.
We're not arguing socialism vs capitalism. We're simply talking about business succeeding. So now my position sounds like socialism I guess. I doubt our way of doing business would have ever led to the situation we're in right now. Someone fails down here, too bad, you're going to crash. We don't need unions. I don't know what the perfect answer is, but if Detroit did business like the non-union industries, you and I wouldn't be paying for this horrible crisis that we're in now. And even though these incentives offered by the state will never be pulled, they probably wouldnt leave anyway. Where are they going to go? certainly not up your way.
Last edited by Green_98; Dec 21, 2008 at 08:16 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 541
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From: Ky
Was something I said incorrect or did you just feel like whining? Do I need your permission to participate in a thread? Do you feel the need to attempt to belittle anyone that disagrees with you?
Since you seem to think you're so smart, why doesn't "the south" offer the same incentives to American car makers that they've offered to the foreign ones? Alabama has given land, tax breaks and provided job training for the car makers there at a cost of $377,000 per job that was created. The big three pay for health insurance for their retirees, guess who pays for the health care of Toyota and Nissan retirees? You do. Guess who pays for the job training? You do. Guess who paid for the land for the south to have a thriving auto industry? You did. Guess what will happen when the south stops with the incentives? Those manufacturers will pull out because they have nothing invested in those plants.
You have any answers for that genius?
Since you seem to think you're so smart, why doesn't "the south" offer the same incentives to American car makers that they've offered to the foreign ones? Alabama has given land, tax breaks and provided job training for the car makers there at a cost of $377,000 per job that was created. The big three pay for health insurance for their retirees, guess who pays for the health care of Toyota and Nissan retirees? You do. Guess who pays for the job training? You do. Guess who paid for the land for the south to have a thriving auto industry? You did. Guess what will happen when the south stops with the incentives? Those manufacturers will pull out because they have nothing invested in those plants.
You have any answers for that genius?
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
We're not arguing socialism vs capitalism. We're simply talking about business succeeding. So now my position sounds like socialism I guess. I doubt our way of doing business would have ever led to the situation we're in right now. Someone fails down here, too bad, you're going to crash. We don't need unions. I don't know what the perfect answer is, but if Detroit did business like the non-union industries, you and I wouldn't be paying for this horrible crisis that we're in now. And even though these incentives offered by the state will never be pulled, they probably wouldnt leave anyway. Where are they going to go? certainly not up your way.
I really wish someone could explain the foreign-only incentives in the south.
The union bashers sure seem to like to ignore that their tax dollars cover the non-union pay checks. Do you think any of them will stop and reconsider their position? Nah, it's all the unions fault.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 413
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From: Manitoba, Canada
End of political rant.....
Ummm ok? Any new info you'd like to share? What does this have to do with the UAW?
How is that working for you as of late?
I'm not too sure. How many times have the Wall Street bankers produced crappy products without backing up their product?
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,509
Likes: 6
From: Georgia on my mind...
Ya. "Had" agreed.
http://www.investors.com/editorial/E...ecure=1&show=1
http://www.investors.com/editorial/E...ecure=1&show=1
The UAW Reneges
INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Posted 12/24/2008
Autos: The government gave the Big Three a $17.3 billion bailout based on the idea that both management and the unions would make concessions. Now the UAW says no thanks. Can we have our money back?
Last week's deal was supposed to hold both the managers' and unions' feet to the fire. In handing out the taxpayer money, the White House insisted the auto union cut worker pay roughly to the levels of their successful competitors, Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
For $17 billion in emergency bailout cash and possibly much more later, it was a reasonable request. As President Bush said, "The time to make the hard decisions to become viable is now — or the only option will be bankruptcy." He added that a deadline of March 31 for the industry to prove its "viability" and other limits "send a clear signal to everyone involved."
Well, if so, the United Auto Workers didn't get it.
Just days before Christmas, the UAW let it be known it'll fight any concessions on wages and benefits. "An undue tax on the workers" is how union boss Ron Gettelfinger described it as the UAW reneged on the deal almost before the ink was dry.
This will go down as one of the most cynical acts of political manipulation ever. The UAW agreed to one thing with President Bush, knowing full well President-elect Barack Obama and congressional Democrats were big recipients of union largesse and would let them slide. They read the situation correctly.
Democratic Rep. Barney Frank this week called union concessions an "unfair assault on working men and women" — a not-accidental echo of Gettelfinger's comments.
But the only real assault on "working men and women" here is the enormous cost this bailout will entail — a cost that all working taxpayers will have to bear and which some analysts think will ultimately total $75 billion to $125 billion.
And the UAW hopes you'll pony it up and give them a free ride.
U.S. automakers are in trouble for two reasons. One, they have massive legacy costs on their books to take care of retired workers, and two, their labor costs are much higher than their competition.
Recent estimates put average UAW worker compensation at $55 an hour to $73 an hour, vs. $45 for the transplant automakers. So at a minimum, UAW workers are $10 an hour more expensive to hire than the 114,000 workers who toil at transplant auto plants situated mostly in the non-union South.
Simply put, unless the UAW makes concessions, a bailout can't work. It will be a financial impossibility. The U.S. automakers' high labor costs, coupled with the 2,000-plus pages of work rules and union requirements under the most recent labor deal, will keep them from achieving the productivity they need to compete.
The U.S. automakers are bleeding $6 billion a month. Better to pull the plug now and force them into bankruptcy, where radical restructuring — including cuts in union pay and benefits — wouldn't be optional but mandatory. That's the industry's only hope.
INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Posted 12/24/2008
Autos: The government gave the Big Three a $17.3 billion bailout based on the idea that both management and the unions would make concessions. Now the UAW says no thanks. Can we have our money back?
Last week's deal was supposed to hold both the managers' and unions' feet to the fire. In handing out the taxpayer money, the White House insisted the auto union cut worker pay roughly to the levels of their successful competitors, Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
For $17 billion in emergency bailout cash and possibly much more later, it was a reasonable request. As President Bush said, "The time to make the hard decisions to become viable is now — or the only option will be bankruptcy." He added that a deadline of March 31 for the industry to prove its "viability" and other limits "send a clear signal to everyone involved."
Well, if so, the United Auto Workers didn't get it.
Just days before Christmas, the UAW let it be known it'll fight any concessions on wages and benefits. "An undue tax on the workers" is how union boss Ron Gettelfinger described it as the UAW reneged on the deal almost before the ink was dry.
This will go down as one of the most cynical acts of political manipulation ever. The UAW agreed to one thing with President Bush, knowing full well President-elect Barack Obama and congressional Democrats were big recipients of union largesse and would let them slide. They read the situation correctly.
Democratic Rep. Barney Frank this week called union concessions an "unfair assault on working men and women" — a not-accidental echo of Gettelfinger's comments.
But the only real assault on "working men and women" here is the enormous cost this bailout will entail — a cost that all working taxpayers will have to bear and which some analysts think will ultimately total $75 billion to $125 billion.
And the UAW hopes you'll pony it up and give them a free ride.
U.S. automakers are in trouble for two reasons. One, they have massive legacy costs on their books to take care of retired workers, and two, their labor costs are much higher than their competition.
Recent estimates put average UAW worker compensation at $55 an hour to $73 an hour, vs. $45 for the transplant automakers. So at a minimum, UAW workers are $10 an hour more expensive to hire than the 114,000 workers who toil at transplant auto plants situated mostly in the non-union South.
Simply put, unless the UAW makes concessions, a bailout can't work. It will be a financial impossibility. The U.S. automakers' high labor costs, coupled with the 2,000-plus pages of work rules and union requirements under the most recent labor deal, will keep them from achieving the productivity they need to compete.
The U.S. automakers are bleeding $6 billion a month. Better to pull the plug now and force them into bankruptcy, where radical restructuring — including cuts in union pay and benefits — wouldn't be optional but mandatory. That's the industry's only hope.
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,509
Likes: 6
From: Georgia on my mind...
Can't make concessions for guys like these though. Crooked union bosses? <gasp!> You don't say?!
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 74
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You don't say! One of the top Ford Union bosses in charge of safety at the Van Dyke plant leaves work hours early and still charges overtime.
No that can't be... Surely he wouldn't do that. He would charge 10 hours a day everyday and would be home by 1130 "like clockwork". They even have his time sheets! Surely they would fire a guy who is blatantly falsifying time sheets right?
One of the biggest arguments by the "PRO" union guys has been that safety is paramount for the unions and without them the Big 3 would basically run amuck and be UNSAFE!
Even better is the safety guys boss who charged over 2500 hours of OT last year. He is the over time champ as well as the bowling champ for the Van Dyke plant. My favorite part is when he bowls on Sundays he is being paid for 8 hours of over time and the plant even posts his scores and winnings in congratulations!!
There's no wonder the car companies are in trouble. Oh, but it's not the Unions fault at all. They are doing everything possible to keep the companies viable. It's all the CEO's fault, not the little union guys.
No that can't be... Surely he wouldn't do that. He would charge 10 hours a day everyday and would be home by 1130 "like clockwork". They even have his time sheets! Surely they would fire a guy who is blatantly falsifying time sheets right? One of the biggest arguments by the "PRO" union guys has been that safety is paramount for the unions and without them the Big 3 would basically run amuck and be UNSAFE!
Even better is the safety guys boss who charged over 2500 hours of OT last year. He is the over time champ as well as the bowling champ for the Van Dyke plant. My favorite part is when he bowls on Sundays he is being paid for 8 hours of over time and the plant even posts his scores and winnings in congratulations!!
There's no wonder the car companies are in trouble. Oh, but it's not the Unions fault at all. They are doing everything possible to keep the companies viable. It's all the CEO's fault, not the little union guys.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Can't make concessions for guys like these though. Crooked union bosses? <gasp!> You don't say?!
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15908257/index.html
You don't say! One of the top Ford Union bosses in charge of safety at the Van Dyke plant leaves work hours early and still charges overtime. No that can't be... Surely he wouldn't do that. He would charge 10 hours a day everyday and would be home by 1130 "like clockwork". They even have his time sheets! Surely they would fire a guy who is blatantly falsifying time sheets right?
One of the biggest arguments by the "PRO" union guys has been that safety is paramount for the unions and without them the Big 3 would basically run amuck and be UNSAFE!
Even better is the safety guys boss who charged over 2500 hours of OT last year. He is the over time champ as well as the bowling champ for the Van Dyke plant. My favorite part is when he bowls on Sundays he is being paid for 8 hours of over time and the plant even posts his scores and winnings in congratulations!!
There's no wonder the car companies are in trouble. Oh, but it's not the Unions fault at all. They are doing everything possible to keep the companies viable. It's all the CEO's fault, not the little union guys.
No that can't be... Surely he wouldn't do that. He would charge 10 hours a day everyday and would be home by 1130 "like clockwork". They even have his time sheets! Surely they would fire a guy who is blatantly falsifying time sheets right? One of the biggest arguments by the "PRO" union guys has been that safety is paramount for the unions and without them the Big 3 would basically run amuck and be UNSAFE!
Even better is the safety guys boss who charged over 2500 hours of OT last year. He is the over time champ as well as the bowling champ for the Van Dyke plant. My favorite part is when he bowls on Sundays he is being paid for 8 hours of over time and the plant even posts his scores and winnings in congratulations!!
There's no wonder the car companies are in trouble. Oh, but it's not the Unions fault at all. They are doing everything possible to keep the companies viable. It's all the CEO's fault, not the little union guys.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
I sure wish I got paid OT to go bowling. I bet I could be the Bowling Champ too if I got paid time and a half to practice.
It's ok though... the UAW said at one time that they would make concessions. That's good enough. Just because they are renigging on their promise now doesn't mean anything. I'm sure they are thinking "The gravy train is back!" 
It's ok though... the UAW said at one time that they would make concessions. That's good enough. Just because they are renigging on their promise now doesn't mean anything.
I'm sure they are thinking "The gravy train is back!"