The difference here is, none of the big 3 at the moment have anything coming out that will do as well for them as the K-Car or Minivan did for Chrysler back then. What we will still have is $20,000 Cobalts and Fusions, with nothing new on the agenda in sight.

 

God damn it W!

 

True, but who knows what might be in the future here. There is talk of bringing European Ford cars here which are world class. 20k for even a small car aint to bad anymore, granted those small cars are able to be highly optioned too which tips the $$$ scales often. I think people are harder to please, how can you judge when people swear the Subaru Tribeca is a sweet *** ride. Personally, the need to go back to basics and go directly into each car segment ***** out. What makes 311 000 Honda Civics sell and only 180k Focuses. The Focus in any shape is a way better looking car than any Civic (you know I'm right, the Civics look gay), so what else can it be??? Fix that and go to the next car etc etc. Also, people are often forced into spending ALOT more money for options because they want only 1-2 things. An example is the better wheels, "available with this package only" so you are forced into more money to be happy. They should be more flexible with options.

 

And Ford wanted to build that plant here, the UAW screwed themselves out of the very jobs they are supposed to protect. They had better get some brains with this bailout and take some concessions.

 

Aspirin for a chainsaw wound.

 

In regards to Chrysler, you need a score card to keep up with the stench behind their asking for money and how it came around. First, the Founder and Head of Cerberus is Stephen Feinberg. He and his wife are prolific donors to the Republican Party. Can you say pay back time? Then there is Dan Quayle, Chairman of Global Investment for Cerberus who is also leading a group of lobbyist to get your $$$$$$$$ from the morons in Washington. Then you have John Snow, former Secretary of the Treasury of the USA 2003-2006 now works for Cerberus as another lead lobbyist. Then there is David Hobbs, former assistant to President Bush on legislative issues. All of these guys are asking for your dollars to be made available to an extremely wealthy company that doesn't need it. Here's an article from Forbes on it:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/09/chr...gerstein.html?

And guess who now owns GMAC, the old General Motors loan company? If you guessed Cerberus, you get a gold star. Here are some of their holdings per Wiki:
* Pharmaceuticals - In December 2004, the company announced the acquisition of Bayer's plasma products business and renamed it Talecris Biotherapeutics.

* Paper products - The company acquired MeadWestvaco's paper business for $2.3B in 2005 and renamed it NewPage Corporation. Cerberus also purchased, from Georgia Pacific Corporation, its Distribution Division/Building Products and all of its associated real estate. It renamed this new company BlueLinx Holdings, based in Atlanta.

* Government Services (Military, Energy, and Food & Drug) - owns IAP Worldwide Services, which bought Johnson Controls' World Services division in February 2005, and Netco Government Services.

* Real Estate - Through investment affiliate Cerberus Real Estate, the company has been making direct equity, mezzanine, first mortgage, distressed and special situation investments in all asset types. It also controls Miami Beach.-based LNR Property, a large real estate development and investment firm through subsidiary Riley Property. Cerberus also controls Kyo-ya, a Japan based group of entities that owns several Starwood managed assets in California, Hawaii and Florida.

* Retail - Cerberus purchased 655 of the 2,500 Albertson's, Inc., grocery stores, forming Albertsons LLC of Boise, Idaho, in June 2006. They also own Mervyn's department stores, which was acquired from Target Corp. In June 2007, Cerberus acquired Torex Retail Plc., a retail solutions provider in troubled waters, for approximately 400 million US dollars.[3]

* Transportation - Acquired bankrupt ANC Rental, owner of the National and Alamo car rental chains, for $230 million in October 2003 and purchased DaimlerChrysler's 45% share of debis AerFinance, an aircraft leasing business, in May 2005. Complete acquisition of debis AirFinance (later renamed AerCap) was concluded in July 2005. Also acquired North American Bus Industries, Optima Bus Corporation, and Blue Bird Corp. in the bus manufacturing sector. Cerberus also owns bus companies Coach America and American Coach Lines, which were acquired from Stagecoach Group.

* Automotive - Peguform, GDX Automotive, and Chrysler.

* Financial Services - General Motors sold a 51% stake in its GMAC finance unit to an investor group led by Cerberus Capital Management in November 2006. GM expected to receive $14 billion over the next three years from the sale of General Motors Acceptance Corp. In December 2006, Cerberus acquired the Austrian bank BAWAG P.S.K. for a reported EUR3.2 billion. In August 2007, Cerberus announced that it was closing one of their mortgage companies, Aegis Mortgage.

* Firearms - Acquired Bushmaster Firearms, Inc., from Windham, Maine native **** Dyke for an undisclosed sum in April 2006, and purchased Remington Arms in April 2007. Under Cerberus direction, Bushmaster Firearms acquired Cobb Manufacturing, a well-respected manufacturer of large-caliber tactical rifles in August 2007. Cerberus also acquired DPMS Panther Arms December 14th 2007.[4][5] Remington Arms acquired Marlin Firearms in January 2008.[6][7]
* Entertainment - Acquired a group of seven television stations, Four Points Media Group, from CBS Corporation in 2007.[8][9]

* Other holdings of the investment group include Formica, Inc., and the Aozora Bank in Japan; and cable operator Galaxy Cable.

* In 2007 Cerberus took over Corvest a promotional products company based out of Largo, FL with arms based in Simi Vally, Ca & Thorfare, NJ.


Does this sound like somebody going broke to you?

 

Cerberus also owns Tower Automotive, a major automotive parts vendor. That is what Cerberus does, they buy companies in trouble, rebuild/restructure then sell off to make a profit. When Cerberus bought Chrysler all they were interested in was the amount of credit Chrysler had available to them. Getting the manufacturing part of it was just a bonus. They can care less about building automobiles, they will just close the plants and sell the real estate.

 

How much did Cerberus pay for Chrysler?



7.4 billion is all they paid for Chrysler... And now we bail them out with over half the purchase price. UNBELIEVABLE!!

 

Ford made 2 Billion Dollars in PROFIT just in 2005.

They made this Profit WITH the UAW.

They made Billions all through the 90's as well.

I'm sorry, but the UAW is not causing this down turn in the Automotive industury. The Union Arguement Does Not hold water.

Honda North America is down 80%, Toyota 69%.

Basically what you're saying is the Auto Exec's should have gotten More of the 2 Billion they made and the American Laborer should have gotten less.

Go to Japan if you want Socialism, we're Capitalists here...

Yet You guys don't even Blink when the Bankers get 400 BILLION of our money. How much do they make an hour on Wall Street???

 

Maybe the UAW didn't start the down turn but they certainly are contributors.

 

should have let them go to bankruptcy. the airlines did it and still put birds in the air the next day, i dont believe all the armeggedon crap everyone keeps saying about it being the end of all economies if the big 3 filed for bankruptcy. hopefully they use this money for something good like making better mpg cars/trucks and dont ask for more in 3 months.

 

All the union bashing is crap, just cause Hyandai does not operate with one does not cause the downfall. Toyota, and Nissan as well as others have had or do operate partially under UAW labor, example when FORD made the Nissan Quest minivan, looked like a Mercury Villager didn't it? Mazda, under Ford, Mitsubishi under Chrysler etc.

Plain and simple, the big 3 had no backup to selling trucks. That bieng said, the japs were scooping up car market share prior to the gas crisis. That in turn equated to poor sales against competitors with their flags already in place. Market share people, makes a huge difference. There is more union bashing excuses than that of the fact they have no car competition or a plan b. All this union bashing tunnel vision is no better than the big 3's tunnel vision of truck sales 5 yrs ago, narrow focus got them where they are today so what issue is union bashing going to hurdle? Once a clear path to the root problem is established maybe a better solution will come of it?

 

Yeah, all this union bashing.

Like when the Big 3 went to the unions and said, "Look guys, we're in deep poo here, you don't like us, we don't like you, let's put our differences aside and try to make it through this. Can you help us out?" And what did big brother union say?

"No concessions."

The first rule of parasitism is don't kill the host. Is the UAW totally to blame? No. Are they part of the problem? Yes.

 

The UAW has agreed to concessions

Mr. Gettelfinger said Wednesday that the union would suspend the much-criticized “jobs bank” program, which allows laid-off workers to continue drawing nearly full wages.

He also said the union would agree to delay the multibillion-dollar payments to a new retiree health care fund that the automakers were scheduled to start making next year.

Beyond those two concessions, Mr. Gettelfinger said the U.A.W. would be open to modifying other terms of its contracts. Changes could include reductions in wages, health care or other benefits, and would require approval from union members.

Suspending the jobs bank program, which supports about 3,600 workers, removes one of the most politically sensitive union perks from the discussions in Washington.

“The jobs bank has become a sound bite that people use to beat us up,” said Mr. Gettelfinger. In the last five years, the U.A.W.’s membership at G.M., Ford and Chrysler has declined to 139,000 workers, from 305,000, because of plant closings and a series of buyout and early-retirement programs.

And have been actually trying to help out since early 2007. Funny how that's not in the liberal MSM.

Fact is, there are a large amount of people on the right that just hate any union, and even if the UAW agreed to cut it's wages by 75%, give up health benefits and give out free car washed, someone would still be finding a way to blame them for the problem.

 

Bankruptcy did wonders for the steel industry...Bush should have let them file ch 11. Whatever the reason for their downfall, be it unions, bad products, blah blah blah, they still failed, while others did not.

I agree with some arguments on both sides of the bailout, but the simple fact is that they failed. Say what you will about the banks, but the banking industry worldwide had to be bailed out, not just a select few companies. No other major automakers around the globe are being bailed out. Just something to think about.

That Ford is solvent without any current bailout money further emphasizes the point that GM and Chrysler should have been left for dead.