The decline of the American car industry
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From: Simi Valley CA
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
From "Another one Bites the Dust", Peter Schiff, 25 Jan. 2008:
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From: Windsor, Ont.
Originally Posted by Bighersh
Blue, do you REALLY think America has normal, regular, everday passenger cars on the road that look nicer inside and out, and are better built than the Nissan Altima, Nissan Sentra, Honda, Accord, Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, and Nissan Maxima? Not the one-off's like the G8 (which may not even be on the road yet), but under $30K.
OK, I'll name 1. The Chrysler 300 (Dodge Magnum/Charger- all the same car).
I challenge you to name five more, that aside from being bigger (maybe) in better in any way.
(Example: Ford Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis, if you chose that, would count as one car, not two)
2.
3.
4.
5.
What makes them better? I know this is all opinion, I just want to know how you got to that conclusion.
OK, I'll name 1. The Chrysler 300 (Dodge Magnum/Charger- all the same car).
I challenge you to name five more, that aside from being bigger (maybe) in better in any way.
(Example: Ford Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis, if you chose that, would count as one car, not two)
2.
3.
4.
5.
What makes them better? I know this is all opinion, I just want to know how you got to that conclusion.
1) Ford Taurus
2) Chevy Impala
3) Pontiac G6
4) Ford Mustang
5) Pontiac Grand Prix
Hell, I could go on and one. I'd love the G8 and in GT v-8 form I was told it's close to 30k, but more, forget the price. Pontiac GXP's, Bonneville's, Impala's with v-8's, Monte Carlo's, again with v-8's. The Ford Mustang, SUV's etc etc. I enjoy ALOT of American cars and will pay good money for something I want. If I can't afford it, I'd rather walk or ride the bus than pay less good money on something I ended up with. Funny thing is, you listed the most stereotypical japanese yuppymobiles that I can't stand the most. You get alot of bland blending in with these heeps, whoopy doo!!! To me, it is justifying bieng cheap and then throwing the old fable of superior reliability and quality as a rational excuse. You have to excuse me for my biased opinions, I do live in the Motor City of Detroit area where cars were basically born for America and because of Ford, GM and Chrysler, Ford in particular, Windsor, Ontario exists as a great manufacturing town. You can see how a japanese car or anything foreign really does not bode well here.
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From: Windsor, Ont.
Originally Posted by GoIn2Shock
Wrong. Why?
If companies have to pay people more they will cut spending somewhere else (R&D, quality of components, marketing, number of employees) So Ford is reducing their employee numbers because of the outrageous salaries and benefits they pay out. You have not noticed this? http://finance.yahoo.com/printchart....on;logscale=on
You can see the fall in the value of Ford and GM compared to the rise of Toyota and Honda stock. A major reason for this is because of increased labor costs here, and low labor costs for Japanese manufacturers. Many Japanese plants here on US soil are not unionized. Domestics should have had more foresight for what the consumer wants, they are now turning that way.
If labor unions strike no one gets anywhere. The company loses money because they have empty plants with no one to run the machines. If the company isn't making products they can't sell the products. So the costs of giving the labor unions what they want will cost less than a strike in the short run.
My final point is unskilled laborers should not be making more than $20 a hour sweeping floors. UAW+poor market research has put the domestic auto market where it is today.
If companies have to pay people more they will cut spending somewhere else (R&D, quality of components, marketing, number of employees) So Ford is reducing their employee numbers because of the outrageous salaries and benefits they pay out. You have not noticed this? http://finance.yahoo.com/printchart....on;logscale=on
You can see the fall in the value of Ford and GM compared to the rise of Toyota and Honda stock. A major reason for this is because of increased labor costs here, and low labor costs for Japanese manufacturers. Many Japanese plants here on US soil are not unionized. Domestics should have had more foresight for what the consumer wants, they are now turning that way.
If labor unions strike no one gets anywhere. The company loses money because they have empty plants with no one to run the machines. If the company isn't making products they can't sell the products. So the costs of giving the labor unions what they want will cost less than a strike in the short run.
My final point is unskilled laborers should not be making more than $20 a hour sweeping floors. UAW+poor market research has put the domestic auto market where it is today.
As far as strikes, has it not been a long time since a major auto strike? It's almost a thing of the past that very seldom happens anywhere. Mostly recent strikes are over "job security" and not wage increases.
Finally, why is the labour the single most used excuse. Tell me raw materials and resources haven't increased drastically and that has nothing to do with anything? If anything, labour costs should have decreased, aside from them buying workers off if you factor that out. Now, more work is bieng done with less people. They did what they said, trimmed the fat. MARKET SHARE, it is what sells cars. When you can't sell them, you loose money, not the union workers fault. They build what the company can't sell.
P.S. Yes, I do notice why the companies are reducing employee numbers, I am one of the reduced numbers. Me directly, insane gas prices canned my job. I use to make the engines for the f-series. Still the number 1 selling vehicle, but gas prices kinda hindered the sales of v-8's so bye bye job for now.
Last edited by BLUE20004X4; Jan 28, 2008 at 09:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by BLUE20004X4
Ok fine, but people think that is what all union workers do is sweep. We basically got rid of that, even office cleaning (there is actually more to the "sweepers" job FYI) has been or will be farmed out. Alot of non-essential services are. Honestly, within a plant, there are good jobs and crap ones, all pay the same. You do actually work at many jobs, ask vehicle assembly workers. Sweeping jobs mainly go to high seniority, someone who needed no skills 30-40 years ago and now is bieng scrutinized for that.
As far as strikes, has it not been a long time since a major auto strike? It's almost a thing of the past that very seldom happens anywhere. Mostly recent strikes are over "job security" and not wage increases.
Finally, why is the labour the single most used excuse. Tell me raw materials and resources haven't increased drastically and that has nothing to do with anything? If anything, labour costs should have decreased, aside from them buying workers off if you factor that out. Now, more work is bieng done with less people. They did what they said, trimmed the fat. MARKET SHARE, it is what sells cars. When you can't sell them, you loose money, not the union workers fault. They build what the company can't sell.
P.S. Yes, I do notice why the companies are reducing employee numbers, I am one of the reduced numbers. Me directly, insane gas prices canned my job. I use to make the engines for the f-series. Still the number 1 selling vehicle, but gas prices kinda hindered the sales of v-8's so bye bye job for now.
As far as strikes, has it not been a long time since a major auto strike? It's almost a thing of the past that very seldom happens anywhere. Mostly recent strikes are over "job security" and not wage increases.
Finally, why is the labour the single most used excuse. Tell me raw materials and resources haven't increased drastically and that has nothing to do with anything? If anything, labour costs should have decreased, aside from them buying workers off if you factor that out. Now, more work is bieng done with less people. They did what they said, trimmed the fat. MARKET SHARE, it is what sells cars. When you can't sell them, you loose money, not the union workers fault. They build what the company can't sell.
P.S. Yes, I do notice why the companies are reducing employee numbers, I am one of the reduced numbers. Me directly, insane gas prices canned my job. I use to make the engines for the f-series. Still the number 1 selling vehicle, but gas prices kinda hindered the sales of v-8's so bye bye job for now.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/19/f...llion-savings/
Unions for the most have served their purpose. The US has moved to a service economy and really all unions are good for is to stop harmful working conditions, which for the most part is now watched by the government.
The writers guild is on strike and look what its doing to TV, losing 27% of viewers because of no new material.
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From: Temple, Tx
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
No, they couldn't, or they would have. First off, you're not even remotely comparing apples to apples 
You're comparing a sleek aerodynamic sports car that weighs half as much as a tall heavy brick of a truck! BTW, the Sierra's/Silverado's do come with the same engine. The 5.3 is basically an LS1, but for some strange reason, these trucks aren't getting 28 mpg
You're comparing a sleek aerodynamic sports car that weighs half as much as a tall heavy brick of a truck! BTW, the Sierra's/Silverado's do come with the same engine. The 5.3 is basically an LS1, but for some strange reason, these trucks aren't getting 28 mpg
Bumping horsepower is seldom conducive to better gas mileage. I don't know what people expect with a heavy tank of a vehicle that uses 8 cylinders to move that mass.
The Tundra makes great power, but for a truck that is a few hundred lb's less than a comparable F150, the EPA ratings on it are no better than an F150 or GM.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calcu...umn=1&id=23937
The Titan is no better, in fact it's worse.
Look at the mileage that a Nissan Pathfinder, or the smaller Xterra gets with the 4 litre V6. It's no better than a much heavier and bulkier F150.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calcu...umn=1&id=23691
What else are they supposed to do? That's pretty serious, and the 20 or so broken cams they had sometimes resulted in the entire replacement of the engine due to the damage caused.
I've read plenty of complaints about customer service in regards to other truck/car related issues from Toyota owners.[/QUOTE]
Really? I believe I said use the same engine and get 16-17 mpgs, not 28. And I do understand aerodynamics, Ive had sports cars. How many serious engine problems has Ford tried to blame on poor maintenance? There is no reason the Vette LS3 couldnt be bolted in the same place the 5.3 is bolted, come on! The could do it, they choose not to. Amazingly enough even gas hog Dodge came up with a way for the Hemi's to get better mileage and not lose horsepower. So dont say it cant be done, yes it can. I have quite a few relatives who are in unions, and they pay their dues and see nothing in return except for ads about how bad Walmart is for not allowing unions. Back when they started, unions were a good thing, but they are outdated and no longer needed. I dont expect my tank of a truck to get better gas mileage, I saw the sticker in the window saying how bad it was. Im saying the technology is there and they could do better, they just choose not to. Guarenteed, if gas went to $5.00 a gallon and all sales of full size trucks stopped, within 6 months you'd see full size 4 wheel drive trucks that got 20mpg in the city.
Last edited by JasonFX4; Jan 28, 2008 at 10:23 PM.
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From: Windsor, Ont.
Originally Posted by GoIn2Shock
Even the UAW knows what they've done to the domestic auto makers. UAW has to give up some health benefits and jobs up so that Ford could stay in business. UAW gives some things up and Ford lets them keep their jobs.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/19/f...llion-savings/
Unions for the most have served their purpose. The US has moved to a service economy and really all unions are good for is to stop harmful working conditions, which for the most part is now watched by the government.
The writers guild is on strike and look what its doing to TV, losing 27% of viewers because of no new material.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/19/f...llion-savings/
Unions for the most have served their purpose. The US has moved to a service economy and really all unions are good for is to stop harmful working conditions, which for the most part is now watched by the government.
The writers guild is on strike and look what its doing to TV, losing 27% of viewers because of no new material.
People get all bitter about unions, why? What have they done to adversely affect you? Because they bargain for better lives for their workers and you're left at the same old same old? Sounds like alot of sour grapes.
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Originally Posted by BLUE20004X4
Or they could be trying to adjust also, giving concessions in order to keep jobs here. Do you for a second think I wouldn't trim up my wages and benefits to keep a job? Ya, something is better than nothing. All these "luxuries" were negotiated during good times, no one bitched. Now things are bad and negotiating is in reverse, what's wrong with that? The union is working with the company, no? Unions help keep jobs from leaving the country. Hey, whatever man, even the actors are supporting the writer's, heck it's part of their livelyhood. Some places a union is not needed, some it is and always will be. I've been part of both. Right is right, union or not.
People get all bitter about unions, why? What have they done to adversely affect you? Because they bargain for better lives for their workers and you're left at the same old same old? Sounds like alot of sour grapes.
People get all bitter about unions, why? What have they done to adversely affect you? Because they bargain for better lives for their workers and you're left at the same old same old? Sounds like alot of sour grapes.
You say you would gladly decrease your own wage to keep your job, but you can't make that bargain. The union has to vote on wether or not that is an option. So is the Union helping you or hurting you in that situation. The reason auto workers need the union is because they are not "marketable". If Ford ships jobs overseas do you think Chevy would ****** up all those out of work union laborers? I can answer that one for you! So where does the Union worker look for work after the unions have bled the auto industry dry? Without a trade or an education WalMart jobs will start looking a lot better.
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From: Houston
Originally Posted by s2krn
No sour grapes here... I work in a marketbale profession. Due to my education I can work in any city in the US. I don't need a Union to "negotiate" for me. If job conditions are unfare, or pay is bad, or benefits suck I move on to the next job. If I lose my job there's 5 more waiting on me.
You say you would gladly decrease your own wage to keep your job, but you can't make that bargain. The union has to vote on wether or not that is an option. So is the Union helping you or hurting you in that situation. The reason auto workers need the union is because they are not "marketable". If Ford ships jobs overseas do you think Chevy would ****** up all those out of work union laborers? I can answer that one for you! So where does the Union worker look for work after the unions have bled the auto industry dry? Without a trade or an education WalMart jobs will start looking a lot better.
You say you would gladly decrease your own wage to keep your job, but you can't make that bargain. The union has to vote on wether or not that is an option. So is the Union helping you or hurting you in that situation. The reason auto workers need the union is because they are not "marketable". If Ford ships jobs overseas do you think Chevy would ****** up all those out of work union laborers? I can answer that one for you! So where does the Union worker look for work after the unions have bled the auto industry dry? Without a trade or an education WalMart jobs will start looking a lot better.
x2, I have been saying the same here for over a year. Few listen
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From: Cypress, TX
Originally Posted by s2krn
No sour grapes here... I work in a marketbale profession. Due to my education I can work in any city in the US. I don't need a Union to "negotiate" for me. If job conditions are unfare, or pay is bad, or benefits suck I move on to the next job. If I lose my job there's 5 more waiting on me.
You say you would gladly decrease your own wage to keep your job, but you can't make that bargain. The union has to vote on wether or not that is an option. So is the Union helping you or hurting you in that situation. The reason auto workers need the union is because they are not "marketable". If Ford ships jobs overseas do you think Chevy would ****** up all those out of work union laborers? I can answer that one for you! So where does the Union worker look for work after the unions have bled the auto industry dry? Without a trade or an education WalMart jobs will start looking a lot better.
You say you would gladly decrease your own wage to keep your job, but you can't make that bargain. The union has to vote on wether or not that is an option. So is the Union helping you or hurting you in that situation. The reason auto workers need the union is because they are not "marketable". If Ford ships jobs overseas do you think Chevy would ****** up all those out of work union laborers? I can answer that one for you! So where does the Union worker look for work after the unions have bled the auto industry dry? Without a trade or an education WalMart jobs will start looking a lot better.
I'm gonna have to agree with this rant.
In my industry it is survival of the fitest. Unions are protecting the little guys. Not such a bad concept when it was launched. Now, you have to look out for #1. #1 being me and mine. I market myself to advance myself. I personally don't like leaving that up to someone else. It was my decision (and my dollar) to get the education and training I have to do what I do. I made my self "marketable" because I wanted to control my own destiny. The union workers are gonna be up a river because they don't have any thing to bring to the table. I serve my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I make sure I give myself the best chance to succeed at what I do and not leave it up to someone else. Not trying to succeed is unacceptable to me.
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From: North of Dallas, South of Frisco
Agreed...
That's why I'm up at 2:02 AM, and have to be at work at 8:30...
Working on my MBA... It's tiring as Hell, but- one day, it's going to pay off.
I'm doing well now, but there's so much more out there, and I want a piece of it.
Telecom is fickle, and I don't want to be the one with no chair when the music stops playing... Got to continue to grow to stay ahead of the curve.
Going to bed now... Gotta get up at...
Aw Hell, I might as well stay up!
That's why I'm up at 2:02 AM, and have to be at work at 8:30...
Working on my MBA... It's tiring as Hell, but- one day, it's going to pay off.
I'm doing well now, but there's so much more out there, and I want a piece of it.
Telecom is fickle, and I don't want to be the one with no chair when the music stops playing... Got to continue to grow to stay ahead of the curve.
Going to bed now... Gotta get up at...
Aw Hell, I might as well stay up!
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From: Palm Desert, California
Originally Posted by BLUE20004X4
No problem: Now keep in mind I'm not sure where in terms of US dollars these cars fall around 30k, but I'll get as close as possible.
1) Ford Taurus
2) Chevy Impala
3) Pontiac G6
4) Ford Mustang
5) Pontiac Grand Prix
1) Ford Taurus
2) Chevy Impala
3) Pontiac G6
4) Ford Mustang
5) Pontiac Grand Prix
That's right, that car was a flop too (not enough power, boring exterior and interior) so how do we make it better? I know! Re-badge it as a Taurus, the 1989 best-seller. Yeah, that will make it sell! Did it work? Nope. Still ugly, still selling slower than ever. Look at the number of Taurus' you see on the road compared to Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
The Impala? Laughable at best. Again, a rental car in disguise. Nothing exciting or innovative about it, other than maybe the availability of a V8, but oh yeah it's FWD so nevermind all that.
Pontiac G6? Same thing as previous. You see more of them at rental lots than in people's driveways. Why? Because they're plain, boring, and lack excitement.
The Mustang, I'll give you that one. Ford really knows what they're doing with that car and they're on the ball, and there is ONLY ONE Mustang.
Pontiac Grand Prix? Sorry, same as the General's other entries. Boring, lacking character, not fun to drive, rental lot queen. I don't think I know ONE person who ever bought a Pontiac Grand Prix off a lot, whether it was new or used.
Let's face it, the Japanese just make a better car. When it comes to trucks, the Americans rule, but in the car department, the Japs got us licked and sticked, just like a postage stamp.
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From: Houston
Originally Posted by 02SuperCrew4X
Let's face it, the Japanese just make a better car. When it comes to trucks, the Americans rule, but in the car department, the Japs got us licked and sticked, just like a postage stamp.
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Originally Posted by 02SuperCrew4X
You're kidding, right? The Taurus? Don't you mean the re-badged "500"?
That's right, that car was a flop too (not enough power, boring exterior and interior) so how do we make it better? I know! Re-badge it as a Taurus, the 1989 best-seller. Yeah, that will make it sell! Did it work? Nope. Still ugly, still selling slower than ever. Look at the number of Taurus' you see on the road compared to Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
The Impala? Laughable at best. Again, a rental car in disguise. Nothing exciting or innovative about it, other than maybe the availability of a V8, but oh yeah it's FWD so nevermind all that.
Pontiac G6? Same thing as previous. You see more of them at rental lots than in people's driveways. Why? Because they're plain, boring, and lack excitement.
The Mustang, I'll give you that one. Ford really knows what they're doing with that car and they're on the ball, and there is ONLY ONE Mustang.
Pontiac Grand Prix? Sorry, same as the General's other entries. Boring, lacking character, not fun to drive, rental lot queen. I don't think I know ONE person who ever bought a Pontiac Grand Prix off a lot, whether it was new or used.
Let's face it, the Japanese just make a better car. When it comes to trucks, the Americans rule, but in the car department, the Japs got us licked and sticked, just like a postage stamp.
That's right, that car was a flop too (not enough power, boring exterior and interior) so how do we make it better? I know! Re-badge it as a Taurus, the 1989 best-seller. Yeah, that will make it sell! Did it work? Nope. Still ugly, still selling slower than ever. Look at the number of Taurus' you see on the road compared to Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
The Impala? Laughable at best. Again, a rental car in disguise. Nothing exciting or innovative about it, other than maybe the availability of a V8, but oh yeah it's FWD so nevermind all that.
Pontiac G6? Same thing as previous. You see more of them at rental lots than in people's driveways. Why? Because they're plain, boring, and lack excitement.
The Mustang, I'll give you that one. Ford really knows what they're doing with that car and they're on the ball, and there is ONLY ONE Mustang.
Pontiac Grand Prix? Sorry, same as the General's other entries. Boring, lacking character, not fun to drive, rental lot queen. I don't think I know ONE person who ever bought a Pontiac Grand Prix off a lot, whether it was new or used.
Let's face it, the Japanese just make a better car. When it comes to trucks, the Americans rule, but in the car department, the Japs got us licked and sticked, just like a postage stamp.
It is really kind of sad when the 265hp 3.5L in a new Taurus (which the 500 did not have) is considered "underpowered" in a four door family car. I guess that may be why they are bring back the SHO next year when the redesign the car.
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From: North of Dallas, South of Frisco
Originally Posted by 02XLT4X4
People see what they want to see. Everyone loves to bash the big three's cars, but I would bet if they had Toyota or whoever secretly design a super awesome car for them and they put their stickers on it the comments would stay the same, the market has been turned against them and people are just looking for a way to nitpick them apart.
It is really kind of sad when the 265hp 3.5L in a new Taurus (which the 500 did not have) is considered "underpowered" in a four door family car. I guess that may be why they are bring back the SHO next year when the redesign the car.
It is really kind of sad when the 265hp 3.5L in a new Taurus (which the 500 did not have) is considered "underpowered" in a four door family car. I guess that may be why they are bring back the SHO next year when the redesign the car.
The Five Hundred could have been SO MUCH MORE of a car, if Ford had made it look like the prototype, and if they gave it an adequate engine at launch. Giving it an asthmatic V6 with 200 HP (A power number many 4 cylinders are nearing) in a sedan that big, then strapping on the new to the market CVT was a bag of crap the Five Hundred did not have the strength of body or character to carry.
now they slap in the 3.5L V6 from the Edge (which should make the Taurus down right frisky- as not even the V8 SHO's had that kind of power), but it's too little, to late.
Not that the Taurus isn't a nice car, but it hasn't been marketed well, and in their effort to introduce a plain car that appeals to the masses (Accord, Camry) they made a big VW Passat. A nice car that hardly anyone wants.
Ford, if you read this... I'd have bought one- but that Edge was so nice I had to have it instead...
Last edited by Bighersh; Jan 29, 2008 at 11:29 AM.
