good thing they surrendered when they did, as we basically used the only two bombs we had. If the torpedo that sunk the Indianapolis had taken it out before the bombs were delivered, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The incendiary bombing of Tokyo and the resulting fires killed more civilians than either atom bomb. The Japanese had been working on diplomatic means for a surrender for some time before the bombs were dropped. Do I think the bombs needed to be dropped to save lives in an invasion? No. Would the Japanese have surrendered without an invasion and without dropping them? Most Likely, they were just trying to figure out how to do it honorably.

My thoughts are that they were dropped as a demonstration of force and technology to the world (namely the Russians). Shortly after the war ended, the Russians tested a nuke that was a carbon copy of one of our designs. It's been common theory that one of the head dudes in New Mexico was leaking info to the Russians. As high up as even Oppenheimer perhaps. We had the most brilliant minds in the world working on our bombs. Obviously, these folks weren't stupid. My opinion is that they had great fear of the power they had learned to harness. What they feared even more was one country having that kind of power. One sided power breeds tyranny and oppression. I think this is why the info was leaked, so another country could fight us on equal footing. With no such deterrents, chaos is sure to result, whether it be many countries with nukes, or citizens bearing arms.

Now all that being said, would I still have dropped the bomb(S)?

YES!

Dropping the Nukes did save lives, a lot more than would be lost in a mainland japan invasion. It changed the future of war. Seeing the carnage that can be caused to a country and its people created cold wars, and prevented hot wars. Nuclear Weapons have not increased the risk of another global war, they have totally prevented it.

 

I agree to a point. But I also believe that if a global war would somehow come about, it would be the last one because we'd wipe each other out, and no country would be spared- directly or indirectly. Our extinction would be assured. This is why I'm with Bush when it comes to disarming people that truly have the desire and material to build nukes.

This may not be PC, but we should have never let France get one, or England, Russia, India or Pakistan and especially not China.... It's too late now. For a while in 1999/2000 I thought India and Pakistan were about to do the d@/\/\ /\/ed thing.

We defenitely shouldn't let Iran, Iraq or North Korea get them. When so many have them, it's too easy to misplace one; have it go off in Times Square and everyone say- "It wasn't mine.. Not me, no Lord." Something like that could start another World War, but- it'd be quick. There's be no need to move to Canada or anything...

If we restrict who has them, then if one goes off we know who did it, and we can lay the pimp-hand down appropriately and effectively.
---------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt:
The battle raging in Berlin signaled the end of the Third Reich.
Soviet Red Army Forces and the western Allies pressed the Wehrmacht so far into Germany that neither OKW nor OKH had room to maneuver.

All over Germany, especially in the East, thousands of Germans killed themselves.
Those that did not faced a Red Army bent on retribution. 100,000 women were raped following the fall of Berlin on May 2.
The Russians sacked Eastern Germany and took anything of value back to the Soviet Union.

Organized resistance was coming to an end.
The question of who could order the complete surrender of all German forces became a critical question. Units surrendered, starting with Holland and Denmark on April 26.
All over Europe German units began to lay down their arms.On May 7, Dönitz met Eisenhower and other Allied officers outside of Rheims, France, and signed the instrument of surrender.
The next day German officers signed an armistice with the Soviet Union.

On May 8, Churchill and US President Harry S Truman declared V-E Day, Victory in Europe. Cheering throngs packed Piccadilly Circus and Times Square.
***************************************

See the Instrument(s) of Surrender:
Germany. http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/germsurr.html
Japan. http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/japsurr.html

 

Not to minimize the accomplishments and sacrifice of the Russians (more lives lost than any other country in WWII), but under the lend/lease arrangement, the USA gave the Russians a huge amount of weaponry. Without our assistance, they may have got to Berlin after us to accept the surrender.



BTW, hell yes we should have dropped the bomb on Japan! Revisionist hand wringing and whining about how Truman might have been wrong just drives me nuts!

The world was beyond weary of the war, and the ability to end it ASAP with the minimum loss of Ameican and allied lives was the highest priority. Praise to Truman for having the stones to do the right thing, and curse the damn traitors who helped the Russians with the technology.

Politicians were not slaves to public opinion polls in 1945 (thank heaven!) but I'll bet 99% of the American people in September, 1945 would have supported any decision that would give us victory ASAP.

 

Considering a previous post about America beign hated because we killed so many Japanese civilians; I agree- let's not shed crocodile tears over Japan's loss.

They attacked an unaware enemy. (Which was not their intent- I know, and is by the way- the best way to attack an enemy; when they least expect it) So, yes it was a military on military attack- but, shooting up hospitals clearly marked with the red cross is just wrong. They were relentless.

After the Doolittle raid on Japan, the Japanese army occupying China, killed 250,000 Chinese the next day for their role in helping us. Not twenty-five hundred, not twenty-five thousand- Two-Hundred and Fifty thousand men, women & children- civilians. They were ruthless.

They killed hundreds of thousands more in bacterial warfare experiments. Putting Botcholism and other bacterial and viral diseases in the grass that they knew the people would come through after Japan pretended to "withdraw" from an area. They left a nasty little gift behind. They were vicious.

The Baatan Death march killed hundred if not thousands of Allied soldiers in the Philippines. They were unforgiving.

So, the 240 or so thousand Japanese civilians killed by FM & LB, tholugh tragic, was about equal to what Japan inflicted on others... They had it coming...

 

AMEN!

...and not only victory, but all the lives that were saved to end that miserable war.

 

DAMN ! ! !

I like that cia....That explains why you work for the C.I.A.

NO really, that was a well put, thought out post...I think I am gonna print it out.

 

Nope. They surrendered to the "Allies". Notice that the official documents list the "Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force" first (although WB Smith signed on his behalf), then followed by the USSR and France:

SURRENDER OF GERMANY

The German Surrender Documents of World War II
----------------------------------------------------------------
May 8, 1945


Only this text in English is authoritative.


ACT OF MILITARY SURRENDER

1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control.
2. The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorties and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at =2301= hours Central European time on = 8 May = and to remain in the positions occupied at that time. No ship, vessel, or aircraft is to be scuttled, or any damage done to their hull, machinery or equipment.
3. The German High Command will at once issue to the appropriate commander, and ensure the carrying out of any further orders issued by the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and by the Soviet High Command.
4. This act of military surrender is without prejudice to, and will be superseded by any general instrument of surrender imposed by, or on behalf of the United Nations and applicable to GERMANY and the German armed forces as a whole.
5. In the event of the German High Command or any of the forces under their control failing to act in accordance with this Act of Surrender, the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and the Soviet High Command will take such punitive or other action as they deem appropriate.

Signed at RHEIMS at 0241 on the 7th day of May, 1945.

France

On behalf of the German High Command.

JODL


IN THE PRESENCE OF
On behalf of the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force, W. B. SMITH
On behalf of the Soviet High Command, SOUSLOPAROV

F SEVEZ, Major General, French Army
(Witness) ---------------------------------------


SUPREME HEADQUARTERS,
ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
SERIAL 1

ORDERS BY THE SUPREME COMMANDER,
ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE RELATING TO
ARMY AND AIR FORCES UNDER GERMAN CONTROL

1. Local commanders of the Army and Air Force under German control on the Western Front, in NORWAY and in the CHANNEL ISLANDS will hold themselves in readiness to receive detailed orders for the surrender of their forces from the Supreme Commander's subordinate commanders opposite their front.
2. In the case of NORWAY the Supreme Commander's representatives will be the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Scottish Command and Air Officer Commanding 13 Group RAF.
3. In the case of the CHANNEL ISLANDS the Supreme Commander's representatives will be the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Command and Air Officer Commanding 10 Group RAF.


WALTER B SMITH Signed.................... For the Supreme Commander, RAF.
Dated 0241 7th May, 1945
Rheims France

 

I bet that if the US had joined the war at the onset, instead of waiting until it DIRECTLY affected them, it would have been over faster with fewer casualties all round.

 

I think the US was a bit more isolationist back then. Subtle support for England & Europe, not direct support. Until Pearl Harbor happened, that is.

 

Gald to see your hindsight is 20/20. The fact is there were plenty of people in ALL the allied countries that turned a blind eye to Germany and Japan, leaving us ill-prepared for war.

It may be news to you, but US citizens died in WWII before Dec. 7th, 1941. Among others, our merchant marine was decimated by U-boats helping England during its darkest hour. The AVN (Flying Tigers) were helping to slow the occupation of China.

If you are that bitter about the USA's role in the '30s and very early 1940's, you must be furious with the actions of some of Canadas other allies.

 

Yes merchant shipping was being sunk by German U-boats, no the AVG did not go into action against the Japanese before Dec 7.

As for attacking Berlin, if I remember my history correctly, the US got to Berlin before the Russians, but stayed outside and let the Russians take the city because they knew the casualties to take the city would be horrendous. And they were. For the Russians.

 

Thanks for the correction on AVG action. The unit was formed prior to Dec. 7 and first saw combat shortly after.

 

Exactly. Our boys had been through enough over there. Ive had long talks with my grandpa about his unescorted flights over Germany, etc and some of the terrible stories he experienced, like cleaning up Auschwitz (sp?) death camp when the war was over. I would have dropped the bomb. War is not fair, innocent people die. Gotta look out for number one, which was us.

 

Well, this went well...

At least we had something to talk about today...

 

If we had not dropped the bomb(s) then Russia would now own most if not all of japan. They were so close to invading japan. The USA did what needed to be done and that was to end the war and save lives and save japan from communism.