With the state of affairs in Iraq, specifically with regard to POW abuse and such, I found this to be an eye-opening commentary that is very powerful.

Andy Rooney on POW Abuse - 60 Minutes

There is a video link at the top of the story.

I'm interested in hearing what you all have to say about what he has said in his commentary. Sure, I don't agree with everything but, on the flip side of that coin, there's probably less that I disagree with in his verbage.

I've often wondered about where we're heading as a country and, in Mr. Rooney's words, I'm worried. Too many Americans take what we have for granted, plain and simple.

Comments? Rants? Dirty Jokes?

Don't hold back. Let's hear what you all have to say in relation to Mr. Rooney's commentary.

RP

 

Here are my thoughts on the prisoner abuse issue.

I served three years with the Active Component(AC)
and five years with the Reserve Component(RC).


From Rooneys' article:
"One general said our guards were "untrained." Well, untrained at what?"

I believe this is the big part of this problem. While there are many tasks that RC and National Guard units are capable of undertaking, I don't believe running the prisons was one of them.
I honestly do not believe this could have happened with AC unit. I do not believe the AC would act this way on it's own nor do I believe they would have followed orders to do so.

Many Reservists and NG troops have served honorably, and sacrificed much, even their lives and I do not mean to slight their service.

The fact is that th AC is made up of fulltime professional soldiers and the RC is required to 'meet' two days per month and two weeks in the summer.

I believe in light of these events it would behoove our military leadership to look closely at what they have tasked our 'weekend warriors' to do and insure proper oversight in matters that are critcal to National Security. Make no mistake, this hurt our National Security and meant unnecessary additional jeapordy for our troops in the foxholes.

 

Truth is the first casualty in war.

There is more media attention to things than there was in the past so things like this are increasingly in the worlds eye today. Moral decay is nothing new and the atrocities of war have always been around. I do believe that more folks in the United States have left moral highground and slipped into the "if it feels good then do it" category. Moral right and wrong is taught less to children today and moral standards are being eroded every day because immoral folks are using the goverment court system to eliminate moral law on the basis of "The seperation of church and state" (which never existed) and the redefinition of terms like "Marriage" to include homosexuals (and I hope animals in the future cause I wan't to marry my dog! )

Our morals in this country came from law and religous principles and the battle of morals is fought day after day. Judgement starts at the house of God, moral teaching starts at home.

Jumps off soapbox. Runs to get a beer. J/K

 

So in a sense he is saying the same thing as the Iraqies, they should just be exacuted. That what they are going thru is not sever enough. And to put the Burg beheading in the same catagory as what our soldiers did it insane.
I think they used major poor judgement, treated these people very bad, and in a few instances could be called torture. I do not think naked with a leash on is torture.
As far as the Guard goes, I have to say that in the past decade, many joined just to add to their retirement plans and never thought they would see war, so did not take the training serious.
I do not mean all Guard in general, but I myself know several people that jioned for this reason.
Another thing I have heard, not from this story, is that it is the young or x gen that was involved and that they have no morals. My son is considered in this gen, and he takes major offense to this thinking as do I.
And lastly, I know 60 minutes thinks it just needed to be told, and sure it would have come out, but I do think they have undermind our efforts and are proud of that fact, and are directly responsible for the death of troops as well as Burg for this reporting.
Oh, and one more thing. Why is it the terrorist that beheaded Burg, they get 2 days worth of out rage, yet the US gets to go down in history as Rooney says, as being worthless now. Mr Rooney I worry about your grand kids too if you have taught them your liberal views toward America. Maybe they should move out of the country now and just avoid the moral decline of our country.

Sled...

 

Yeah, the world is going to forget about all the torture and dead bodies under Sadaam.

Some of the countries in the world do not wan't to get involved in addressing the killing and torture that still occurs in places all around the world.

The United Nations is really a paper tiger that can pass resolutions to tell folks not to do something but can rarely enforce them.

 

some of you don't get it...you don't see how bad this is...we know better or we should...allot of what Andy said has some truth to it...He has been around...85 years in fact...

We had to disband our own AirBorn Reg. for doing some very un-Canadian stuff to prisoners while send to keep the peace...

What other countries allow to happen is something they have to live with...BUT...I don't want my Country or my wife's (USA)to fall to this low state ...""I do not think naked with a leash on is torture.""
...Sad...where you think putting a nude man on a leash and draging him like a dog we saw in that picture is not torture...Cause IT IS...

Remember what goes around, comes around...We should feel shame for what was done these people...What training does it take to act like a human to others...???

 

I dont like to see my country fall to such a low either, but it is not unreasonable to think everyone that expects us to hold such a high standard live up to the same standard.
I am sorry, but for the Muslim world to say what we did makes us so terrible and to call for these soldiers exacution, then have there own people exacute an inocent person and say that is justified is bull *****.
Why is it that other countries are allowed to allow thing to pass and we cant, especially when what these few soldiers did was not the norm but rather an exception to the way we do things.
Now we have our Olympic committee advising our athletes not to celebrate any wins they have at the olympics by waving our flag as it may be viewed badly by other countries, as gloating or such. Yet when that Iraqie olypian happens to win he will be able to cheer and wave his new flag, or better yet, if he loses, he wont be killed for failing. Guess I just believe in equal standards.

Sled...

 

I believe it has been acknowledged by historians that the British lost the revolutionary war, in part, because their military failed to adapt to the way the colonists were fighting. That lesson should not be lost in the war on terror.

Do I like prisoners dying while in American custody? Of course not. That deserves investigation and criminal justice as required. On the other hand, information extracted from prisoners using mental pressure can result is saved lives and a shorter conflict.

With the press embedded everywhere, we have turned war into a spectator sport. As with any spectator sport, there are folks cheering for both sides. We as a people are all growing tired of Iraq and the negative news. But I agree with the President. We must see it through.

 

""We as a people are all growing tired of Iraq and the negative news. But I agree with the President. We must see it through.""

Yes..don't get me wrong..we are into it no matter what reasons we are told then or now...I don't agree with what the Iraq bombers are doing to our men and to their own people...Good Men have died to try and help the Iraq people as much as for the agendas the President and crew had for going to war...Worst we can do now is back out with some local talban types trying to take over ... So ok charge the army , up to the top bosses that gave the orders...Pay for damages and tell them we are sorry...but move on an get the job done...

 

"It's a black mark that will be in the history books in a hundred languages for as long as there are history books."

I don't agree with this. There were far greater atrocities commited against Germans by Russians at the end of WW2 that have long been forgotten. The same could be said for any war. There will always be groups, on both sides, in any war, that behave this way. Historically, they are seldomly remembered.

 

What is sad it you don’t seem to know the difference between torture and humiliation. Torture ALWAYS causes physical pain like electrocution, cutting off limbs and ultimately sawing off ones head like what happen to Nick.

Taking pictures of scambags naked in order to disgrace them and humiliate them in order to get information that may prevent deaths to our soldiers is not a problem and something I can live with.

What would your answer be to get the necessary information? Should we offer them McDonalds happy meal gift certificates for good solid information? Sorry if it takes dragging them around on a dog leach or shooting a gun next to their head to get the little scambugs to talk then no problem so long as there is no “physical” pain because then it would be torture and that I do not agree with…

Andy Rooney is an extreme left wing nut that has lead this country to what he whines about which is the lose of moral values and personal responsibilities. It is evident with anyone that thinks what happen to Nick and the scumbags that were forced to get naked are the “same category”. They are NOT in any way in the “same category”.

I started another thread based on the fact that our left wing media is helping to kill many of our soldiers by their skewed view of what is right and wrong, good and evil. When Nick gets 2 – 3 days of play on then news but yet naked prisoners get weeks and most likely will be months proves why this country has lost much of its moral values is because people like Andy Rooney have done that for MONEY, POWER and their own weak political agenda.

Where are the left wing nuts, liberals as far as these few soldiers go? How come they are not out their protesting to the world it is not their fault for what they have done? How can these soldiers be held accountable for making scumbags get naked and putting leashes on them?

They, the left wing nuts, liberals are always there for murderers, rapist, drug pushers, child molesters and the list goes on about how it’s not their fault for what they do. Lady kills 3 of her kids, not her fault. Let’s see you have the ACLU defending the right of the organization for MEN that LOVE BOY’S, that’s a group of child molesters that the ACLU is defending because they say they should have “freedom of speech”, the ACLU is a hard left wing liberal group the same group that has continually tried to shut down the boy scouts and what’s to get rid of the Pledge in public schools. I guess the boy scouts and the Pledge are not good enough for protection of “free speech” by the ACLU. It is the kind of group that Andy Rooney belongs to.

Andy Rooney needs to SHUT his whinny *** mouth because he is whining about the very things he and those like him have fought for, for a very long time which is no moral values, no personal responsibility and the right for everyone to do what ever they damn well please.

Andy should be backing these soldiers for what they did not whining about it. Perhaps Andy needs to apologize to America for the problems he and those like him have created and then try to help those soldiers that have brought disgrace on themselves…

Just like the left, always want it both ways…

 

I'm thinking, 01, you might have taken it a bit too far in proclaiming Andy Rooney an "extreme leftwing nut."
Andy was there in the military when Paris was liberated. He doesn't believe the French have ever earned the right to criticize America's stance on the Middle East. He believes the money he earned is his and resents it being used to provide handouts in a welfare line the government (and certain liberals) support. He doesn't mind paying taxes for infrastructure, and agencies that provide a higher quality of life for those that contribute to this countries defense and well-being. He believes that those that do the crimes should serve the time regardless of their gender, race, politics, etc.
I think Mr. Rooney has voted Conservative Republican more times than he'd care to admit.

I think Mr. Rooney can be labeled as being old enough to experience a full life and having the desire to allow everyone to experience the same.

Oh, BTW, I agree with your comparisons of torture VS. humiliation, but I doubt humiliation saves many lives with the secrets it unveils. Torture, on the other hand, frequently reveals life saving information. Berg's execution was neither, there was no information forthcoming from that young man. It was done purely for "schock and awe!"

 

01, I'll have to disagree with you on the definition

tor·ture
n.

Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Something causing severe pain or anguish.


I'll take physical torture over mental torture any day. The fact that Nick Berg didn't receive as much attention as many feel he deserved, doesn't diminish what was done in the prison either. As far as Andy, can't argue with you on that.

As far as the prisoners go, had they been the actual people that dragged burned bodies through the streets, I'd be all for any and all abuse, but I can't agree with abusing generic prisoners. The idea of keeping prisoners is to effectively remove them from the conflict in a civil manner. Iraqi's that are still fighting the US, view us as the bad guys, and feel they are defending their country. I surely wouldn't want any of our soldiers treated this way if they were captured.

 

Andy Rooney lost his sanity many moons ago. Do Americans think these people that we have in Guantanamo Bay and Iraqi prisons are Choir boys? Nope. I'm not saying we should be routinely humiliating them, but how do you think we gather inteligence? I can assure you it isn't by giving them a ham sandwich and asking them politely where their next terror target is. Rooney is the same man that said Mel Gibson was "insane" for showing what really happened to Christ his last few hours on earth.

 

Well, the thing that bugs me about the whole prisoner abose thing is the whole "joy" factor that was portrayed. I'm not sure it would have gotten as much air time if the pictures would have been some dude with a towel rapped around his head while some serious military man dumped buckets of water on him. The dude standing on the box with the wires attached to his fingers didn't get a lot of play. Instead we see some chick and her boyfriend gleefully posing for the camera whilst pointing as some guy's weiner. They were having too good of time to make me think it was a neccessary tactic.

Now, I agree that the media (including Rooney and Fox news) has made a mountain out of a standard hill here. In the grand scheme of things the only purpose for plastering these pictures all over is for propaganda. There is little relevance otherwise.

These soldiers and/or anyone that commanded them to do this should get the same treatment that any prison gaurd in the states would get for doing this. Maybe they should spend time in Iraq with some of the same people they decided to do this too. I know this is straying some from my original comments on this, but I've got a chance to think about it a little more.