That basically depicts what I was saying which is PAIN. These prisoners that we have seen pictures of, as far as being naked and dragged around with a dog leash have suffered NO torture whatsoever in any sense with the above definition.

Unless you think them being naked and dragged around on a leash is “Excruciating mental pain” that I don’t buy at all. They had their manly feelings hurt is what is amounts to and you know damn well they all thanked their God that they were not being held in one of Saddam’s run prisons of the past…

I don’t like what happen because it has brought shame on those soldiers and their fellow soldiers. However put into the proper perspective they didn’t do anything that deserves more then a few days on the news. It is being dealt with properly and the only reason it is being drug out like it is, is for “political” reason only!

The left is using it for political reasons and those political reasons are getting more soldiers killed everyday and that is a fact, those political reasons are causing a major division in America and one that very well could be the demise of America if we don’t smarten up…

 

"Unless you think them being naked and dragged around on a leash is “Excruciating mental pain” "

There are those that believe this, just because you disagree, doesn't make it not so. What qualifies as mental torture will vary from person to person, and many things happened in that prison beyond being walked like a dog naked. I agree with you that this one thing is not torture, but if you've ever suffered extreme mental anquish, you'd be much more sensative about it, or just cold.

I know you may not believe this, but not everyone's motives are political, some people just think this was wrong, and yes, there are those that are doing it for explotation.

 

Andy Rooney was Dead on.

All the soldiers who did this to these prisoners, they should be taken out back and shot.

the dumb *** who took the pictures should pull the trigger.

I support our troops 150%, but I do not support this crap.

Shame on you if you justify it.

 

Sounds like something Saddam would agree with as well...

 

of course I mean it figuratively.

 

In contrast to Andy R, let me quote from John Ross' take on the prison pics.
Full text available at
[ur]http://john-ross.net/islam.htm[/url]

QUOTE:
Those pictures said volumes. They said "We're your worst ****ing nightmare: We're Americans. Our women are stronger than your men. Our littlest women will strip naked the strongest men you can muster, and make fun of their puny ****s while enjoying a cigarette. Our women love to get naked, love sex, and revel in the sexual prowess of their American male partners. They'll put impotent "men" like you naked on leashes whenever they want. America is the most powerful country in the world, and guess what? Women control 70% of its money and 100% of its *****. What are you going to do about it? Behead some Jewish "contractor"? Fat lot of good that's going to do. We'll put on some hearings for show, but you know the truth: we'll do whatever we want whenever we want, and we'll have our women do it. Just for fun. Think we're kidding? Wait 'til you see our beer ads."
UNQUOTE

Arab society is about the male. Women have little to no say. So you can guess what the prisones felt when they got their *** handed to them (pun intented) by a little american girl. Now what would they do and say to keep those pics from being tacked up on a palm tree in their home village. Much more effective than having some gorilla GI break their fingers.

Fritz

 

01,

While I don't necessarily agree with you on everything that you've mentioned in your two rants, I do agree with you on one very pertinent point; that being that the media has ridden this pony up and down hills and over the fullest extent of the prairie. It's time for the issues to be focused upon and those certainly shouldn't be POW issues.

By the same token, I whole-heartedly disagree with you about your 'just like the left, always want it both ways' comment. This, my friend, is where you're calling the kettle black. Let me explain as I know you aren't going to take this the wrong way (even if you are a Zainoid-LOL)

Someone (namely Rooney in this instance), expressed an opinion that was obviously shared and supported by the network where he was broadcast. That opinion is one of the founding factors that brought this country to where it stands today. Personally, I don't think a political agenda was being carried out nor do I feel that his comments were off-base (for the most part -- read on). To call someone 'left-winged' because they have expressed such an opinion is to, very simply, criticize everything that this country is based upon and what you are standing up for in your commentaries. Further, name calling, when someone has expressed such an opinion (that being a straight forward, fact filled opinion), doesn't say a whole lot (it would be different, in my opinion, if nothing was supported and there were random, off-the-wall comments with little to no basis) Using the words 'whiney', 'nut', and comparing his views to 'sickos' which the ACLU supports is totally uncalled for and further detracts from your very strong and opinionated stand; but, this isn't about you 01. I respect your opinion and so, I'll comment on what Mr. Rooney has said.

I want to mainly focus upon his comparison to past civilizations (Greeks and Romans) to the civilization in which we live in today. In my opinion, the 'worry' that he brings to the surface is very valid. I, too, am worried about the state of the world at the moment and worry that a vast number of Americans have been thrown very off-balance with the events that have unfolded since, and before, 9-11. We, as a country, must stay focused on the issues at hand and continue to strive for maintaining our way of life. If engaging targets abroad enhances our way of life, so be it. I was very much for taking Saddam by storm and overthrowing that regime however; we must all admit that there have been broad and overwhelming speed-bumps in the way. Nothing's perfect and that's to be expected but, we seem to be stumbling at times where it's most critical to stay the course (ie: the POW situation).

Rooney's comparison to Nick Berg was off-beat in my opinion as well however; his comment about being human was very on course. In what sense are humans supposed to treat other humans like that? Do I know the full story behind it all? No. Do you? No. Does anyone? Maybe just one or two. None the less, we have to adhere to the rules of war and those set forth by the Geneva Convention. Leashing up POWs, forming naked human pyramids, and goodness only knows what else doesn't adhere to the rules that we always insist on following. This, my friends, did set us back from steering the course in which we sat forth to accomplish because those rules were not followed.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in an 'eye for an eye' but, those aren't necessarily the rules of engagement or war that we adhere to as Americans. Do I have full faith in the American and Coalition troops abroad? Absolutely positively but, instances of this nature HAVE caused regression and our goals are more distant now. It is that simple.

As for being held to a higher standard; I think that's an understatement. We ***ARE THE STANDARD***. There is not another country on this Earth that is held to a higher standard. We set the standard. We raise and lower the bar based on what we do as a country. We raise and lower that bar based on everything that our military does (especially in a time of war). We raise and lower that bar based on every breathe that we, as Americans, take no matter where our feet touch the ground. We are the standard. We must live up to that responsibility or else we should expect to fail, not only as a military force second to no one in the world, but as a country.

RP

 

How dare you talk to 01 like that !

That's my job !

Burt you know I am a gentleman and will not 'pile on' until Bushs' poll numbers drop at least another five points.

(see you then)

 

Thanks for the info. I thought forming naked human pyramids was ok unless whipped cream was involved.

 

The training isn't to teach you to act like a human being, but to teach you not to give into the baser depravity all humans are capable of. Honor, integrity, and a sense of duty do not come naturally to humans. These things are taught. Taught by your parents, teachers, civic leaders, coaches, boyscout leaders, and so on... Passed down from those that have come before us, as these concepts were developed over the ages. Sadly, not all people are taught what they need to know, about personal responsibility and their duty to the community. The constant training in the US military molds men, and women, into the people we all ought to strive to be. The training doesn't always work; and, there are varying degrees of understanding and acceptance, due to a soldier's background and intelligence.

 

This was the point of my oriqinal post. Active Duty gets the 'constant training', Reservists do not.

 

Actually you have it backwards Temp1. It's okay if whipped cream is involved! and against the rules of the Geneva Convention in any other form.

Well said RP!

 

Just curious as to what the figures might be regarding how many reservists were active duty before becoming reservists? Does anyone know or is this a good time for a websearch?

 

My sentiments exactly!







When I first saw the pictures out of Abu Graid, my instant reaction was, "Oh man, here's ammunition for those that don't agree with me. Thanks a lot you jackasses!" My second reaction was that it's unfortunate for these images to be out there for the world to see. Why? Because I KNOW that this is not anywhere near representative of US culture. I KNOW that intelligent people World-Wide KNOW the same. Yet, here are the pictures that say differently.

These pictures are a big deal, and will continue to be so for some time. I don't think they will become historical guide marks as Mr. Rooney seems to. They will however be used as ammunition by the people who have no other solid points to criticize. Put in context, the actions of the people in the photos are quite mild compared to the atrocities that have been committed in war over the millennia. "War is Hell." They are embarrassing to me as an American, and an ex-soldier; but, they are not monumental evidence of the collapse of modern society. Give me a freakin' break.

 

I agree with you 100% on this. It makes a huge difference in behavior and self examination.