Having someone spend my tax dollars on a religious education tells me the government approves of that religion. As an atheist, that offends me.

I have no children. I don't think I should have to pay any taxes for education. As far as I am concerned you folks with kids should have to shoulder the entire burden.

If you think it is unfair that you pay taxes but can't spend them on a religious education, then how do you think I feel having to pay to educate children when their own parents probably do not even care?

We've got two choices here:
1. We get rid of all education taxes and let everyone pay for their own education. I am all for this idea. I should not have to pay to put your kid through school. Moreover, folks with 6 kids should have to shoulder more of the burden than someone with just one kid.
2. The government handles education and public funding does not end up in religious schools.

And what if someone wants to use those school vouchers for an education in a school that teaches hate such as a madrassa? If you allow them to use the money for that, then I think you are a fool. If you don't allow them to use their voucher for such an education, then the government is in fact establishing "acceptable" religions.

Is this really a debate you want to waste federal time and money arguing?

What strikes me as odd is that you haven't addressed even a single one of my other concerns about school vouchers. How do you handle teacher and student transfers between schools? What do you do when some students get into the good private school and the rest of the students get stuck in a public school that now has even less funding? What will you do when they start to bitch? What will you do if your daughter winds up in the now under-funded public school?

You are happy to extol the virtues of vouchers, but you won't address any of my concerns.

-Don

 

I think a lot of the people here underestimate the effect that just a few parents can have on a school. If you get a few parents together (it does not have to be a lot) and if you are persistent or annoying enough then you can get a lot of things changed. You really can have bad teachers pushed out if you get enough parents mad about them. The problem is often that people just aren't willing to try.

There is no question that the UFT is just a little too powerful sometimes. It doesn't bother me when they strike for higher pay or more funding. It does, however, annoy the living crap out of me when they stand up for lousy teachers who really just need to move one.

-Don

 

Just for the record:

"The Skunk Works began a series of designs code named "Archangel", hence the "A" designation. After 10 designs were deemed not satisfactory, they finally came close to the optimum combination of speed and low radar signature on the all metal A-11. After changes in structural materials to lower the radar signature even further, the titanium skinned A-12 model was introduced." (The A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71)

"The Blackbird's stealthiness is achieved by its extreme speed, the high altitude of its missions, electronic measures, and special radar absorbing materials on the chine and leading wing edges that reportedly contain iron ferrites. The ferrites dissipate radar waves and effectively lower the SR-71's chances of getting picked up on radar."

Now would you like to change your opinion on the SR-71 being a stealth aircraft?

-Don

 

This is definitely a problem and it is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed.

Definitely.

It is in inner cities that school vouchers stand the least chance of working. Inner city schools suck because the parents of these kids are either no longer around, both working, or are otherwise disinterested. School vouchers aren't going to fix these problems.

If you want to improve these schools, make the parents responsible for their own children. You probably check your daughters homework every night right? That sort of thing does not happen in an inner city school. How is a child supposed to care about their education when their own parents can't be bothered to (or simply can't) take the time to check their homework?

You can do that now by voting out your school board and by voting in people who give a damn.

-Don

 

I think parental involvement is only reduced to that point if you allow it to be. Go to the school and cause trouble. Get other parents together. Vote out the school board.

That's not true. There are plenty of people who have made a career out of this sort of thing

I am curious how this was the responsibility of the school administrators? Are the guns that kids bring to school their responsibility? Are the fights that kids get into caused by the administrators?

We have taken power away from the administrators (such as the ability to dole out punishment) and then we wonder why they are powerless to keep our children safe. What should they be doing differently? Or is it perhaps up to the parents to teach their own children right from wrong and how to behave?

Please do not mis-understand me. There are plenty of principals and teachers who are complete asses. I'm just curious if you think they deserve all of the blame.

-Don

 

Unfortunately you do not get a choice in the matter and no a parent spending money on a religious education does NOT tell you that the government approves of that religion. It tells you that the government is following the Constitution, specifically the 1st amendment.

No, to parents having to fully shoulder the burden of educating their children. Yes I have a child in school and HELL no it is not up to me to completely pay for it since I have NO control what is taught, how it is taught and NO other options opened to me.

Let’s take you illogical thinking through to the end. If a parent should be completely responsible for paying the total cost of a public education then there is absolutely NO need whatsoever for any other social program in our society.

That means absolutely NO welfare, NO social security for the elder (give them back the money they paid in, but they get MUCH MUCH more then they ever paid in) NO Medicare, and the list goes on.

So when grandma has to go to the hospital for a medical emergency but she has no money to pay for it then you have to send grandma home with no medication or medical assistance whatsoever. Grandma should completely shoulder the responsibility of her medical condition.

You see where I am going here? I am all for shouldering the complete responsibility for my child’s education since I won’t be paying any federal, state, or local taxes. Well, actually I would have to pay a small amount for federal taxes for the United States Military, but other then that NO TAXES at all since everybody will be completely responsible for shouldering their own responsibilities.

The rich will love that as well since everybody in America, across the board (who pay taxes) would see something close to a 90% tax reduction…

Already addressed above, you’re saying you are all for, basically a 90% tax reduction for all people who actually pay taxes. That I do support…

I would say it has to be an acceptable education. NO if they teach hate or little terrorist then NO they are not a school they are some kind of cult and need to be completely destroyed…

So, let’s move on with more educated examples shall we?

Yes, is makes much more sense then wasting federal time and money feeding people who are quite capable of working but sit on their *** collecting welfare…

No need to address that at this time until vouchers is an acceptable alternative to public schools. In other words if it was accepted as a possible alternative that would be the time to discuss other merits of the program.

It’s like you and I debating should we build a rocket to get to the moon on our own and have not made a decision to do so but begin talking about what we will build on the moon when we get there.

First we have to decide do we even want to go, the reason for going, and then once those decisions have been made we can start discussing what makes the most sense to do once we get there…

 

I ask you again, if someone wants to spend their vouchers on an education in a Madrassa or school that teaches Voodoo is that acceptable? What about a school that teaches Scientology?

I said let's get rid of all school taxes. You seem to be against all taxes so let's do it. Then you can pay for your own child's education and you will have a say in what she is taught.

I am all for this. To hell with public education. Third world country status here we come

What about water, sewer and garbage collection/landfills? What about food inspection/quality control? What about the Interstate Highway system? The fact of the matter is that it is not as simple as doing away with taxes.

Even if you just meant doing away with social programs then you need to be careful. Social programs can be a safety net for the entire country. Would you work on a bridge without a safety net under you? How bad do you think our economy would be right now if everyone who got laid off were unable to collect unemployment?

You have to ask yourself whether or not you are willing to risk another great depression.

The great depression scared this country into taking a more active role in social stability. They decided that it was worth a little extra money in taxes to help ensure a stable economy and a stable society.

In principle, these ideas are sound. In practice they have been abused, misused and implemented incorrectly.

So once again we are back to the government telling us what is and what is not an acceptable religion. Is an education in Voodoo acceptable? They don't teach hate after all.

Why the hell do you keep bringing up welfare? I loathe welfare more than you do. It pisses me off as much affirmative action, although both probably for different reasons than for you.

That's ludicrous! There are so many potential problems and they have to be addressed _before_ the programs can be seriously considered.

No. It's more like cavemen talking about how to get to the moon without first having any understanding of physics. It's a waste of time.

You and several other people on this board have already decided you want to go. You just haven't figured out how to get there.

Besides the potential problems with school vouchers I have also asked you how you expect vouchers to solve any of the problems with our current education system.

For example:
I was on a bus the other day and I was listening to two junior high school girls talk about what when Columbus discovered the new world. The first girl said "It was like in the 1800's right?" The second girl says "No way! That's too late. It had to be in the 1600's."

Now are you going to sit there and try to tell me that somehow these girls managed to get through junior high school without ever learning when Columbus discovered the new world? Or are you going to acknowledge that the current generation of American students is just dirt stupid? They spend too much time playing with their XBox and chatting on AOL instead of reading and learning.

-Don

 

XLT,

The really funny thing about this entire thread is that up until I met you I honestly thought I was a pretty strong proponent of smaller government. The fact is, I am still a proponent of smaller government, I'm just not in your league

-Don

 

Don,

First let it be known I do enjoy debating back and forth with you.

Second I think you completely misunderstood my position on taxes and parents having to bear the entire financial responsibility of their children’s education.

You made a point that parent should have to completely pay for their children’s education and that is just illogical because it is the same thing as saying every individual should be completely responsible for everything in their life.

You mentioned the freeway system, but why should I have to pay for a freeway/turnpike I may never drive on. There is federal money collected and given back to states for the federal highway system. So why should I pay for highways/roadways in some state I may never drive in?

What about the train systems that are funded by the federal government? Why should I have to fund that if I never take trains anywhere?

As far as FDA, and other federal agencies that are responsible for over looking the safety of things why not make individuals responsible for checking and conducting their own test to insure their food and medicines are safe?

Here is the thing, if you want to be in a third world nation then make it the responsibility for parents to pay for their children’s education while still paying a huge amount of money into the federal government, state and local government for things they may never have to use. When that happens many parents not being able to afford paying for their children’s education may try to educated their children themselves and in about 20 years that very well could lead us into a third world country…

The funding of education is the responsibility of every individual in America, its Americas guarantee that first its citizens will be well taken care of and also insure that America remains on the cutting edge.

To ignore education is to eliminate the very foundation that has made America great with the best opportunities in the world and why others seek out and come to America to begin with…

 

As with the Dodge SRT/10 , the '01 XLT Sport is in a league of his own.

A round of Zaino shots to everyone!!!

 

I wasn't trying to be serious with those comments but I suppose I got a little carried away.

Lol. Laboratories for everybody!

I was only try to refute the argument that people make when they claim it is unfair that a person paying for a private school is also paying for the public schools. I was arguing that it is just as unfair as a person with no kids having to pay for public schools. I don't agree with either argument was my point.

Well you, Benjamin Franklin and I agree on something

Most of the public schools in this country are excellent. There are a few failing schools. The problem I have is that school vouchers strike me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think we can fix the bad schools if we confront the problems instead of running away from them.

-Don

 

Well, I guess this thread is coming to an end...

Not really, I understand that the materials used for the SR give it a stealthy platform, however, with two huge Pratt & Whitney's churning out full afterburner, the plane is about as stealthy as a naked girl streaking through the mall (a hot one that is, about 5'5, maybe 115 lbs)....(oh yeah, possibly blond hair, blue or green eyes)