Well said TexasSteve.

Not that anyone said it in this thread, but it is tiring to hear people from all sides say, "If you do not believe in X" or "If you do not do X" then you are not a Christian. I'm sure there are a few things that all can agree on, like the list of 3 from TexasSteve perhaps, but who the heck are we to judge who is and who is not saved by our Gracious God. Amen.

 

Don,

The Catholic Church, like protestant churches, believe in the Trinity. While I think that a discussion of that is not appropriate for this board, it means that they believe, officially, that Jesus is both "son of God" and God. JWs do not believe in the Trinity. There are a few denominations that might accept the three points I listed but do not believe in the Trinity, but these sects are very small, and generally not in the mainstream. Nevertheless, I guess I did not include the Trinity as a required believe of a Christian!

While I am Protestant, I have no problem with believing, practicing, Catholics. Again, the three tests apply. There was a reporter embedded with the American Army who famously died of heart failure on the battlefield, who was a Catholic Christian, who was deeply committed to Jesus.

TS

 

Oh sure. I'll bet the next thing you're going to try to tell me is that the Holy Spirit (Ghost) is also God. Sheesh!

-Don

 

Yup.

 

Texas Steve:
I have to take issue with your contention that Muslims don't hold christian values because as I said before, If you were to read the bible and then read the koran you would be surprised at how closely they parallel each other. Their major differences revolve around prophets and the whole JC son of god thing.
Religion in all forms has been a hobby of mine for many years even though I am what is currently called an evolutionist. Because of this I feel that I am able to look at the whole religion picture with an unpredjudiced eye. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that one form of god worship is any better than any other. To each his own and more power to ya.

 

I really don't know much about the Koran. It is a weakness in any arguement I would make about Christianity vs. Islam.

Nevertheless, the result of clinging to those three points I mentioned previously is humility, service, and self worth. Flowing from that is grace and forgiveness. To the extent that Moslims practice such things, I guess they are similar. But you do not hear grace and forgiveness from the mouths of the Mad Mullahs.

I have heard it said that Islam is about surrender, and Christianity is about forgiveness. I agree with the part that Christianity is about forgiveness. Without an understanding of Jesus as the payment for our sins, forgiveness is difficult, and so I would be surprised to find much similarity at that point in Islam.

TS

 

OK, I've read the entire thread.
All of you are going to Hell except for two of you.
Of those two, one will held in purgatory for a long, long time.
The other one will be allowed to accompany me in my egg when I leave this planet.
(you will have to fly in coach, sorry) Na-no Na-no

 

 

you don't hear grace and forgiveness from the mouths of many Christian preachers either, unfortunately. comparing the followers of a religion will always show an imperfect picture of the religion. comparing religious texts at least gives you a more accurate picture of what religious people strive for. people are imperfect, so there is not going to be a perfect follower of any faith.

 

But you do hear about grace and forgiveness as being at the center of what Christians believe.

As I indicated above, you are right when you say I am handicapped with respect to not having read the Koran text.

My boss is Moslem. He is from Lebanon. He has many fine qualities. He admires the Christian principles of the leadership of my company (his boss) and has recommended them to me, giving me books (overtly Christian) to read on the subject. Many of them are behaviors, that I, even a believer for the past 28 years, need (badly) to incorporate into my habits.

Well intended Christians have made mistakes. Often, however, it has been Christians who have revealed and corrected many of those mistakes. A black Christian leader I respect, John Perkins, who led a quiet revolution in Mississippi during the 60's and 70's, once met with the (white) Baptist minister of his little town (Mendenhall) to establish fellowship and consider the problems of the black community. That pastor was so overwhelmed with the rightness of John's mission, and his inadequacy in the face of it, that he committed suicide rather than stand up to the bigots in his church. Which pastor represented the Christian faith? The one whose actions correlated with the teachings.

I bring that up because my wife, a Japanese national, is reading a biography of Rev. Perkins, and a black man she works with at the airport saw that she was reading it, and was shocked that a Japanese woman married to a white guy would have any interest in this man or what he stood for. But, that is what happens with Christians. It breaks down barriers. That man is my brother.

Charles Colson is another example. Here is a guy who was culturally a Christian, but not acting like it. He came face to face with the jerk that he was, and decided that he deserved to go to prison even though he could have easily fought charges. He WROTE his own charge, and pled guilty to it.

Having gone to prison, he dedicated the rest of his life to both prison reform, and reforming ex-cons. Not a particularly "conservative" thing to do. But as John Perkins has said, conservatives often arrive at their opinions about the conditions of the poor from afar. However, when they come face to face with realities, they are much more reliable to actually do something about the injustice they see. They become radical. John Perkins observes his experience that liberals would rather throw the poor a bone, and keep them begging for more, rather than teach them to fish and become self sufficient.

Thomas Pickering is an example. Here is a guy that the local black leadership of all political positions has endorsed as a good man, a man who is a friend of the black community and one who has worked to help it. Yet, national liberal leaders have blocked his nomination because they are afraid of an ideologue, whose idealism propels him to deal fairly with peopel of color AND oppose abortion even if not activistically.

I guess I got too political for this thread. Sorry.

 

You believe in God, but not aliens. Because you have seen no proof that aliens exist. What proof do you have that God exists?

Not flaming, I promise, no offense intended.

 

TexasSteve, I am glad you brought up those figures, especially Perkins. I had the pleasure of meeting him and his son. His son is in Pasadena and I met Rev. Perkins in Chicago. Perkins is indeed a wonderful example of Christianity at its finest when lived out. I was merely saying that many Christians are not good examples of the faith, so we can't target the mullahs either. But I agree with you. If you have kids or are planning to have kids, I highly recommend a book called "Check All That Apply" by Sundee Frasier. It is a Christian book (InterVarsity Press) about being multiracial which your kids would obviously be. I am multiracial and I know Sundee well. There is a lot of good wisdom in that book.

hillbillyFX4, that is a fair and fine question. I take no offense at it. I am a scientist, a chemist by education and trade, and, while most scientists tend to disbelieve religion based on science, I find it impossible NOT to believe in God based on all of my scientific training and research. There is too much in this world that science cannot explain and that screams of a creator. Life is more than a conincidence or a haphazard reaction. Not trying to open up the creation/evolution debate though, let's leave that out of this thread. So anyway that is how I came to my conclusion that there must be a God behind all of this. Now as far as being a Christian, I have seen overwhelming historical and personal evidence of Jesus and his power in my life. The histrocal and literary evidence you can read all about for yourself in some very good secular as well as Christian books. The personal evidence I cannot convince anyone of, because it was just that, personal. I have had experiences with God that are irrefutable and powerful in my heart and mind. Some people may think this is BS or hokey, and that is fine, I am not here to prove myself, but my faith is my own, not something someone else told me to believe. My faith is active, not just a belief stashed in the back of my mind. It determines how I live and what I do. I am one messed up man without Jesus, believe you me. And that is precisely why I believe in God. Thank God for forgiveness and mercy.

 

So, have you got your answer yet?

I personally think you can believe as you want to believe. I have heard many "Christians" (I use quotations there, because only you can truly decide if you are a Christian) say they believe the Bible eludes to a previous creation before this one. I cannot say one way or the other. It seems to me the Bible is open to too much interpretation, and everyone thinks they're an expert, not trying to flame anyone here. Everyone has expressed their views, and said they are just their views.

In the end NO ONE knows, and anyone who claims to is wrong, otherwise they would have undisputable proof, and you wouldn't be arguing about it...

 

for anyone who is interested...


Koran begins with this introduction

Al-Fatihah
In the name of God
The Compassionate
The Merciful 1:1

Praise be to God, Lord of Worlds, 1:2
The Beneficent, the Merciful, 1:3
Sovereign of the Day of Judgment! 1:4
You alone we worship, and to You alone
We turn for help. 1:5
Guide us to the straight path, 1:6
The path of those whom You have favored,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray. 1:7



Koran teaches God’s mercy and forgiveness to all. It preaches oneness of God, who is almighty and all-knowing as well as compassionate towards His creatures. Justice and fairness, kindness to orphans and widows, and charity to the poor are all extolled. God is also stern in retribution. Unbelievers will be dealt with no mercy and hell is a place they will rest in afterlife. The true believers who follow the teachings of Koran will enter a garden watered by running streams, with abundant fruit trees - a true paradise. The most important duties of Muslims are faith in God and His apostle (shehada), prayer (salat), almsgiving or tax levy (zakat), fasting (siyam), and if possible pilgrimage to the sacred House in Mecca (hajj), built by Abraham for the worship of One God. These are the five pillars of Muslim doctrine. Islam literally means ‘submission’ and a Muslim is one who ‘submits’. The unequivocal monotheism of Islam served to unite all Muslims into a brotherhood (umma), which would later unify all the Muslims worldwide into a formidable social and military force.


If anyone is interested, I can post more or provide links

 

Don't confuse the message with the messenger.

To bad not many people know that phrase.