Back to the OP's original question. Unless you put your truck on a dyno to compare, I think you are just speculating which tune is better. I think there is no substitution for a dyno tune compared to a mail ordered tune. You may think your truck is doing better with one tune or another but you don't really know unless you put it on a dyno. This is just my opinion.

Kevin

 

Yes tunes are going to be different. I don't have Troyer's tunes, never have, so I can't comment. However I have had VMP's tunes on two vehicles and have always been very happy with the results. I mean just ask these guys, they know how much I like the tunes. I've even had babies like Jeremy who found the light at the end of the tunnel !!

Are you talking about the OP or Thumper Jr (Jeremy)? If you're talking about Jeremy than I understand but if you're talking about the OP ... It's very easy to tell the difference between two tunes just driving around town, you don't need a dyno to tell that, in relation to driveability. Power wise you'll need a dyno, correct. A few tuners, especially Bama Chips, use little tricks to manipulate throttle position to modify how the vehicle "feels" thus why they have "race" and "torque" tunes.

 

Kevin, you're dead right on this. But, doesn't Jeremy bring up a valid point that: The differences are really minor (if you go with a reputable tuner)?

And, most of us seem to agree that Mike, Justin and Bill are in that category.

Which leaves me with, "Who do I feel comfortable doing business with"?

I made that decision a while back and nothing has changed my mind. I suspect you've done the same, and so has Jeremy. Good on you! You've both made a good choice!

Do we really want to argue millimeters, when our everyday driving amounts to, "Cutting it with an ax"?

(Of course, if we go with my model on this forum - it will die out due to boredom!)

So, to hell with it! Mine's 0.00001 HP better than yours!

Oh, damn! Thumper, you snuck in again!

- Jack

 

Actually, I'm trying to say in a nice way that the differences are not minor. My tunes at least feel completely different. VMP's tip in pedal response is amazing and extremely snappy compared to stock, but really fades away after 3000 RPM. Troyer's tunes pull really hard over 3000 RPM, but tip in pedal response is horrible (worse then stock) and I really have to throw alot of pedal into the truck to get it to move initially (which completely contradicts Troyers web site which says "There will be noticeably better tip-in throttle response"). So, no I don't believe the differences are minor at all. But in a perfect world I'd find a way to merge VMP's 500-3000 RPM with Troyers 3000-5000 RPM and I think I'd have the perfect tune. But because neither can do both RPM ranges very well I'm not happy with either. And I'm not sure a dyno run with datalogging will make much difference either. Both have indicated that TEM7 is pretty popular and are pretty familiar with it. I can't imagine my TEM7 is that much different then others. Especially since the truck runs so well.

 

Not fair. You gave him underpants and your dad invited him for a steak dinner.

Obama also thinks that the fuel price crisis could be solved if everyone inflated their tires and got a tune up. Who is this guy? A pitchman for Jiffy Lube?

 

I guess my main point of all this discussion is "WHAT" is better? Who determines what is better? Is there a standard? What does better driveability mean to you and someone else? Example: Joe Smith wants more horsepower but John Doe wants better shifting. Each has something that means more to them than the other. People on this forum state what they think is best but it is probably not the same for everyone.

spike, I don't know why your throttle response would be worse with Troyer's tunes. My truck has great throttle response and it was that way on my other truck.

Kevin

 

Actually Spike is right. I noticed the same thing. If you go back to my old posts from when I first put in Troyer tunes I mentioned this fact and not like it and this was coming from Edge. VMP's settings are more like Edge's. The best way to explain it that I can think of is that there are adjustable options with the throttle sensativity via the Xcal.

So...with Troyers say pushing the gas pedal down 50% of the way equates to 40% engine load. Whereas say pushing the pedal down 50% on VMP or Edge's may equate to 60-70%. It's just the way the tuner sets it up is what I'm guessing.

That's the best way I can think of it. I haven't noticed the power fall off after 3k like Spike describes and WOT feels about the same to me with VMP edging out slightly maybe due to the precision of the dyno tune.

I'll be taking it to the strip soon and seeing if there are any big differences.

I don't know if I'd go as far as saying that's a major difference. You might have to push the pedal more to get the same results but I think the results would still be there. It's just annoying have to push the hell out of the pedal to get it to go anywhere. I definitely did not like that as well.

 

Exactly! It makes the truck feel sluggish. Then at around 3000 RPM it feels like a turbo charger was installed. Not at all what I expected for $400+ dollars.

 

Spike, what other mods do you have?

I ordered the XCal3 with 3.5" AF1 and Troyer custom tunes recently and my tunes are horrible. Under 3,000 RPM I have absolutely no power at all. Way worse than stock. Even at full throttle, the power does not kick in until around 3,000 RPM and at that point your description of "it feels like a turbo charger kicks in" is accurate.

Also, even just cruising along, there are power "surges" all over the power band that are very annoying. They cause the AF1 to drone in and out.

I have been working with Troyer and they have made some suggestions to try and help me (e.g. clean MAF, try different gas), but it's not working. The bottom line is that something is wrong with my tunes and until I either datalog or get a dyno tune, I don't think they can fix it. But my location is nowhere close to a dyno shop, and I am not willing to spend another $400+ on a WB O2 considering I have already dropped over $700. That $700 is currently sitting on my garage floor as I am driving the truck stock and FAR prefer it's stock driveability compared to with the tunes.

I am also not fond of how noisy the AF1 is under load. This is certainly not Troyer's fault, it just added to my disappointment.

Not sure what to do at this point but I "think" my tune problems likely stem from my 3.5" AF1 and the difficutly in tuning for this without a dyno. I am considering my options, but I think I will probably sell my AF1 and talk to Troyer and see if they will send me some new custom tunes for my stock truck. Hopefully, tuning for stock only, there will be no issues with the tunes.

 

My mods are very basic. Xcal3, and AF1 3". I just installed e-fans, but I doubt that makes any difference.

Me too. I told this to Mike and he said it was not possible that his tune was worse then stock under 3000 RPM. That is when he suggested changing the O2 sensors. Didn't make any difference.

I'd like to work with Justin to get his to feel like Troyers over 3000.

This drives me nuts too. Everyone that has went for a ride in my truck asks if something is wrong with it. The droning drives me crazy. I have never heard droning ever with VMP tunes in my truck.

I too have contacted Troyer. I tried all the maintenance suggestions too. None made a difference. And as you pointed out, we will have to fork out another $150-300 on dyno time just so the tunes can be done right. WTF?

 

I had issues with a rough idle caused by the 3.5" AF1. Come to find out, VMP tuned for the 3" version, even though I specifically said 3.5" in the tune request. Sent it back to AF1, they put the sleeve in to make it a 3", and truck runs much better now. Only thing that bugs me now is at WOT, seems like the truck holds its gear too long. It runs up to the limiter and sits for a second before shifting. Just a minor annoyance.

 

Like you, I am frustrated, but at the same time I do understand Troyer's perspective somewhat. He needs the datalogging in order to be able to "diagnose" the problems. It just surprises me that someone as knowledgable and reputable as Mike could mess up my tune SO badly.

I am also concerned that even after I fork out the money (and drive 5 hours) for a dyno test, the tune STILL doesn't work out right. Then I am out even more money and still in the same position. This has me leaning towards a WB O2 sensor, but I just don't have the cash for that right now.

This, on top of the fact that I don't think I will ever like the sound from the AF1, has me contemplating the possibility of selling the AF1 and getting the tunes changed for my stock truck. I am hoping that Mike would give me a deal on the new tunes considering the trouble I have been through.

Mike wouldn't mess up the tunes for the stock truck, would he? I am worried that maybe my hex code is unique and there is something "different" about my truck, meaning it would never get tuned properly without a dyno.

 

I have both Troyer and VMP tunes in my SC application and they both have good points and bad points.

Troyer's is definetly conservative when it comes to the power. I really like his shift schedule in my driving style very firm and drawn out shifts, kinda wish it would shift harder. Power is good and control of the boost bypass is great. Driveability in traffic is smooth and predictable. I think there is more power in it but he likes to keep ot safe but I want to run on the ragged edge but cant seem to get that support.

VMP did a kick **** job on the tuning when I had it on his mobile dyno, however had a very bad drivability experience on the way home. Shifting was ultra fast but the torque converter would stay locked as low as 40mph. I have had mutiple issues with the transmission side of the tune and cant seem to get it to shift like I like and part throttle is a crap shoot in traffic. I can be cruising then just barely touch the throttle and the truck would just lurch forward because the boost bypass would come on full at the slightest touch. It is very hard to drive in rush hour traffic.

I like the power I made with VMP's tunes but I prefer the shifting schedule of my Troyer tunes. I am going to try one more local tuner but I am a bit concerned on the trans part of the tune but we will see. Over all I have dealt with both extensively and they are both very good tuners. I have to lean towards Troyer for the F150 and I would lean to VMP if I decide to get a manually Mustang

 

This is my biggest concern with moving forward too. How much more to a sink into this knowing the datalogging and/or wide band O2 might not help the tuners fix the problems. Then I'm out even more money. But my curiosity is getting the best of me and I want to get a dyno run done. I thought about the wide band at first, but that will only help the tuners get the tunes right. It won't satisfy my curiousity about HP gains. At least with a dyno I can find out what stock did, and what the tunes are now doing. I guess I'll call around tomorrow to find out what it will cost for dyno runs with datalogging.

 

Ive been thinking of trying out a VMP tune lately. 50 bucks, why not.

With my Troyer tunes, the truck pulls like a bat out of hell on the top end...bottom end is still unimpressive, although it is a heavy **** 4x4 too.
I still have that stupid TC issue when cruising along at 40 MPH, hitting the throttle, then the truck seems to bog down for 3 minutes before it takes off. I absolutley HATE this. It makes the truck very unpleasant to drive. This is the main reason I want to try a VMP tune...to see if it will get rid of this problem.
It just pisses me off every time it does this...when I hit the gas that means I want to GO! Not sit around for 5 seconds while the truck goes retarded, then take off.

The shifts seem to be a little inconsistent also. Sometimes it seems like it will shift very firm, just how I like it. Other times it hardly seems any firmer than stock.

Maybe I am just asking too much from any tune. But I would sure love to see if someone can make this thing drive like a 300+ HP vehicle, not a F'n Yugo.