Other than the media nobody with any sense is pushing this as a savior. It is; however, an alternative that can reduce dependence. That is the key. Reduce dependence.

As for the true cost. This sounds a lot like Pimental talking. He wants to consider the cost of corn all the way down to the fuel used by the farm equipment; but, by comparison he doesn't consider the cost of exploration / drilling and such for fossil fuel. For apples to apples. You start with a barrel of crude and you start with a bushel of corn. The net energy calcs done by the truly unbiased shows ethanol has a higher net energy than does gasoline.

Again. Ethanol should never be considered as a replacement but in a true free market not controlled by Big Oil, it can and will reduce our dependence thereby forcing a reduction in the price of gasoline.

 

Fair enough....the topic is still open to debate.

However, if oil dependence was truly desired S. American ethanol wouldn't be essentially embargoed.

I'll assume your use of "Big Oil" isn't being used as a pejorative. Ethanol makers will do the same thing "Big Oil" is doing if they could.

 

I have an 06 SuperCrew with the FFV Ethanol Engine. I have ran both.

First, since gas is cheap right now, either is about the same price.

However, back a while when it was $2.90 for unleaded, and $2.40 for E85, I too did a comparison.

True the E85 save me money at each fill-up. However, that stuff bruned off so frickin' fast that the MPG SUCKED... YES, SUCKED. Consequently, I filled up more often.

With regular pump gas (87 Octane), it did cost more to fill up, but I had much better MPG.

So, fill up more often for cheaper, or less often for more. At the end of the month it's a wash, and actually a bit cheaper on pump gas.

It was $995 to upgrad from the 4.6 to the 5.4 or the 5.4 FFV. I chose the FFV for the same money, that way I at least have an option... Although in comparison, it is not a cheap option.

My advice, save the cash on conversion. Eventually, E85 will grow in price because of hgh usage and the cost of crops will sky rocket because of the chortage of other crops being sacrificed for corn. Expensive gas or expensive food, either way we will be screwed.

 

I ran into the same thing when I first started working with the Pro Racer Software losing 3 MPG. With 93 Octane Gas and Troyer's Hi-Perf I was at 12 MPG. So using E85 dropped my economy to 9 MPG. I then loaded a copy of Ford's FFV Tune RYB2-2006 F150) and immediately lost another MPG. So now I was at 8 MPG. So, I installed an EGT Gauge. Then began working with leaning it out. E85 is so emission friendly and burns much cooler than gasoline. This allows a gradual leaning without causing harmful emissions and without running hot. I had the emissions tested a couple of weeks ago to a month ago. The results are in another post; but, they were very favorable. I am now at 11.5 MPG with E85 for the past 10 or so tanks. Now, remember my truck is lifted and currently turning 35s so I am giving away an easy 3 MPG with any fuel just because of my config.

I believe both Ford and GM are just paying lip service to the call for alternative fuel. They know how to get fuel economy; but, you could never prove this is anything intentional. The world believes because Alcohol contains a lower BTU content, fuel economy will suffer. So few are questioning why the fuel economy is so poor with E85. Custom tuning has brought my truck in line.

Yeh Vader. I completely agree. I was not just referring to Big Oil specifically. I already see the same thing from Big Ethanol. While they are separately owned, their practices are the same. That is exactly why I decided to setup my own operation and make my own E75, E85, and E90. Plus, of course, the cost is much more favorable. Actually, I have another motive. I want to install a whipple and turn 37s. When my fuel economy drops another 2 MPG, I can justify it because I will be producing my own at around $1.00-$1.25 a gallon.

 

All very interesting, and somewhat educational.
I doubt I'll ever attempt E85, but it's always good to hear about things like this for the sake of learning. One never knows when he may need to call up info such as this.

 

interesting experiment going here

i am of the persuasion that corn-based ethanol is not a viable alternative to gasoline for america, but i admire your research

good luck, keep the reports coming

why is your mileage on gasoline so low, btw? is it the lift and tires?

 

Hey, I have been thinking about producing ethonol for a while. I have a few questions for you. First of all were your original $500 savings in 10,000mi from buying e85 at the pump or making your own? Also I see you know alot about what is involved in making your own ethonol. Do you make your own? Where did you get your still? How do you make it? What do you have to do to run ethonol in an 05 f150, change parts out or just reprogram? How do you get it reprogramed, or were do you get the program? Any info would be greatly apreciated.

Thanks

 

I really liked the part in post 16 about starting with a barrel of cude and a bushel of corn as though these just jumped in the barrel and the kernals just dropped out of the sky for free.

 

I don't think there will be a shortage of crops. There will just be more greedy people to take more profit! Just my .02 worth.

Kevin

 

I get sooooo sick of seeing this when there is no real proof......and I'm not just talking about burning it as an end user....

You've got a tractor making a pass for plowing, one for planting, possibly another for weed control?, another for harvesting (often with a support vehicle in the field offloading), another for chopping stalks, another to plow them under, trucking the corn to a processing plant, ethanol production emissions, trucking the ethanol to a gasoline facility for blending, trucking it back to gas stations.....

Add all those emissions together and tell me if its cleaner or not, otherwise its meaningless drivel......



Ethanol is a good way to use some corn, not much else, may well change if we get sugar based ethanol going....

 

01 I agree but we won't see sugar based here in the US, we don't have the climate for it.

Plenty to be had from S. America but the embargo wont allow it in because corn based can't compete and we know it.

 

OK. No real proof. Let's see. I converted my truck, was reasonably satisfied with the tuning, then took it to a testing facility generating results at 1/10th allowable carbon monoxide and 1/3rd allowable hydrocarbons. The testing facility told me my 100,000 mile truck was burning cleaner than a brand new truck just driven off the dealer's lot. Seems like pretty good evidence to me. As for the tractors and the emissions they produce. Those are going to be there anyway. I don't know if bio diesel produces less emissions; but, many farmers in this area are now running 30% biodiesel through their equipment. The net result is fairly simple. Reduce the number of vehicles burning petroleum based fuels and you reduce the harmful emissions sent into the atmosphere.

Apples to apples comparison only. Pimental likes to start with a barrel of crude and then he wants to compare that to all of the energy required to produce ethanol starting with a bare field. If you want to compare energy required to energy required, you have to have a common starting point. Either you compare both at the very beginning or you compare both at a common point.

The $500 is from purchasing it locally at the pump. The plans to make a still are available from dogwood energy. A federal producers permit is required. The permit restricts production to a detached and locked building. I have built the still and am in the process of constructing my building. When it is complete, I will produce 16 gallons per day. Enough to satisfy my family's needs. Ethanol production is very similar to producing moonshine so it really is nothing new. The only difference is you have to filter all the water from the alcohol before attempting to blend it with E10. As for the conversion, I did this with the Pro Racer Software from SCT. Many have said our trucks won't handle E85; but, my truck continues down the road just fine with more power, better emissions, and nearly the same fuel economy. I am now over 11,000 miles.

 

Sorry, I should have said cellulosic ethanol, which can be processed from a wide variety of biomass.....



That might be marginally better, but its not like gasoline burning engines bump right up against the allowable limits, new vehicles are significantly under also...

Its not like there's a finite corn supply and it just gets shifted from tables to gas tanks. Farmers are being subsidized to produce MORE CORN to sell for ethanol, and that equals more emissions.

As I said, there is absolutely no proof of any actual net environmental savings....

When you factor in all the farm machinery, fertilizers (nitrogen) that are made from crude oil, etc... roughly 40% of the caloric value of corn comes directly from fossil fuel, before you even think about turning it into ethanol. Ethanol plants emit toluene, acetone, formaldehyde, acrolene, benzene, ethylbenzene and many other chemicals. Ethanol plants require about 3/4 million gallons of processing water a day, which adds huge amounts of pollution to rivers and groundwater, as do all the fertilizers and topsoil erosion from farming.

"Clean burning" and "good for the environment" my ***.......

The only reason we have such a push for E85 is because our political system is massively corrupt and there's huge money in the farm lobby, there's no scientific data saying that corn ethanol is a viable alternative fuel. On the contrary there's tons of data showing otherwise, plus the bare fact that even if it were more efficient and cleaner to produce we can't possibly grow enough corn to make more than a small dent in our oil consumption.

 

Roush,

I sure would like to know which farmers and which government program is providing subsidies to the farmers. My brother-in-law, farmer for his whole life, would love to get involved in the government benefit.

Nobody is saying Ethanol, by itself, will replace pertroleum based fuel. The simple fact is I can produce E85 or E90 for about $1.00 per gallon. Last I knew, there was no way to produce gasoline at home so I would therefore continue my dependence upon Big Oil and the government. I have learned I cannot depend upon either. The same is true for heating my home. A bushel of field corn produces the same amount of heat as does 5.5 gallons of propane at about 25% of the cost. You guessed it, I have a corn burning furnace on order and will pick it up in 6 weeks.

Alcohol based upon cellulose is right around the corner. Iogen in Canada and an org in California are in the process of building plants. As for taking food from someone's table, yes it has a variety of uses; but, to my knowledge Ethanol production hasn't taken any "field" corn away from a hungry mouth.

As for emissions. My wife's 2006 F150 will be tested before and after. Her's is a stock vehicle. So, your statement will either be proven correct or incorrect. We'll see.

 

I know this is an old thread, but I was just wondering does anyone know if tschaid has had any problems yet? Or how many miles he's up to? Or has anyone else used ethonol?