anybody ever learn about the theory of diminishing returns?

its a big parabolic curve that states as time goes on, the amoutn of return goes up drastically initially and later levels off.

you are only going to receive excellent power gains from both products. no arguing troyers is going to net you more power, how much more power? its not going to be ridiculous, dont forget you still have a naturally aspirated motor, the difference is definitely NOT going to make you regret either purchase

in the end i would pick the edge, much more functionality. after we are done beta testing the units, 97-03 owners will have one hell of a good product with functionality and seat of hte pants feel

lets say you and your friend both went to rival fast food places to get their family size box of chicken nuggets. if at the same price one chain gave you 20 nuggets instead of the other chain's 25 would you be ridiculously disappointed? now imagine if the store with less nuggets gave you a variety of sauces, wet wipes, and dessert. if you are a hardcore chicken guy you will always get the 25 pack of nuggets because chicken is all you want, you can really give less of a damn about the niceties. now for some of the rest of us, youd liek to have a little bit of other stuff on the side because it rounds everything out. youre still going to eat a lot of chicken nuggets, you wont feel like you had some crappy 5 piece meal (like a crappy chip). get the comparison?

 

Chevy owners eat chicken nuggets.

Ford owners eat steak....

 

eatin dodges ****n chevy's

 

If resale is something of concern to you, you better get the edge. The Xcal2 is gonna cost ya 450 bones and if you get rid of the truck and have no use for it, you won't be able to give it away. I've had mine on the classifieds and have had no interest at all. I priced it at $150 shipped because if someone is to buy it, Troyer wants $225 to make new tunes for it for the new owner. So you have to give it away to make it cost effective for someone to buy a used one and have it reprogrammed.
Just some food for thought.

 

When I bought the XCal I knew it was only a piece of hardware that is useless unless you have proper custom tuning put on it. The tuning is what counts, not so much the delivery system. IMO Mike does an excellent job making custom tunes; that’s what I paid for

A little more food for thought

 

Thanks for all the replys guys! Its helping me make a decision.

By the way you ever worry if these tuners are causing undo wear to the transmission , fuel injectors, etc?

Tom

 

To me, the Edge Evolution is the easiest tuner to use. Very user friendly. Updates over the internet is easy also. The Edge is very quick to reflash, less than 45 seconds. I like the set up on how it stay in the truck, and also the readout it provides.

 

"Supposedly" They make the TRANSMISSION last LONGER because it reduces friction by slamming the clutches together rather than easing them. Which makes sense to a point. But what does that do to the engine? Or the rearend? Or the drive shaft U-Joint bearings? Or to the serpentine belt? Or to the differential? Or to the A/C?

Increasing engine horsepower, and ESPECIALLY engine RPM shift limits increases wear. Plain and simple. There's no way it's "good" for the engine to spin to 5,200 rpm before it slams into gear.

But having said this, how much does it actually hurt the components? Probably not very much. Especially since most people don't do WOT runs all the time. So if you don't drive your truck like a maniac and keep the oil changed, I don't think it will hurt it bad enough to decrease its life an appreciable ammount.

But to answer your question, (in my opinion), YES. But is it worth it? MAYBE. I have 175,100 miles on my truck, and I've done probably 100 WOT runs(since I got a tuner), and several burnouts. One lasting probably 10 seconds @ 4,200 rpm. It doesn't burn any more oil than it used to (I burn less each oil change) and I can't tell a difference in any aspect of the truck's function (other than increased performance)

And when the day comes, and I leave the tranny laying on the road behind me, I'll probably attribute it to my signature, and not the Edge.

 

Actually, there is some good info and a little bit of incorrect info here.

First, all those who claim that the only difference is that we make more power are only correct in that we do make more safe & sustainable power, but that is where the accuracy seems to end. We are experts & specialize in these vehicles, at both power production as well as optimizing other areas that safely add more performance,improve driveability, throttle response and many other aspects. But the additional benefits of our custom tuning are NOT, as has been claimed, just the additional power.

The never-ending debate of Edge versus our tuning continues to compare apples to oranges, plain and simple - OF COURSE our custom tuning is going to be more thorough and do a better job compared to "off the shelf" types of units. We Specialize! Thus we are concerned primarily with maximizing ongoing R&D to always refine our tuning on an ongoing basis - that is what specializing gets you, and is why several of the chipmakers come to us for assistance, as our expertise on these platforms is well known throughout the entire industry.

The point being, it's NOT FAIR to either them or to us to try to compare Edge or Superchips, or Hypertech or anyone else's off the shelf products to our tuning, as they are two completely different animals - off-the-shelf versus custom. Just like it wouldn't be fair to expect us to tune hundreds of different platform vehicles - that is not what we do! So each of us has our role, and I think each does their respective role well. So we commend & carry Edge, and Superchips, etc., so we respect what they do, and they clearly respect what we do, just as the President of Edge & Superchips Inc very graciously said to me in our phone conversation, they clearly recognize the fact that we set the bar for tuning in these vehicles - and it was very nice of Tom to say that - it's all good, it's simply a matter of what you are looking for as we carry both types of products, from our renowned Troyer Performance custom tuning as well as the Edge & Superchips off-the-shelf tuning devices, as we believe there is a place for them all.

Last - I would like to commend Chester's first (I think it was his first?) post in this thread, very nicely done for the most part - however, I do have to take exception to a few things in his last post (and no offense here my friend, I just want to be clear) - I completely disagree that it's going to in any way harm the drivetrain to run the engine up to 5200 rpm before allowing it to upshift at full-throttle - nonsense. Just like it does not hurt the vehicle to be turning 4700 rpm at full-throttle in 2nd gear when towing a load up a mountain, these trucks were built for that and more. You have to actually know the design limitations. Heck, even the FACTORY rev limiter is above that point in a lot of these trucks, and the 5.4 2V & 3V N/A connecting rods are rated for 6000 rpm. Not only that, but anyone with our custom tuning has the ability to soften up the shifts and to also LOWER those shift points if they so choose, as anyone who actually owns the XCalibrator 2 knows. And it's funny how Roush uses an even higher upshift point that we do in some of ours with their tuning for their SUPERCHARGER kits for these vehicles, which carry a 36/36 powertrain warranty, by the way - that simply could not happen if the vehicle's powertrain weren't up to it.

It's really all in how you treat the vehicle overall - if you drive it like a race car, well sure, then it's going to break sooner. This is also one reason why we go over in such detail with each of our custom tuning customers how we are going to set up each of the tunes, and why we talk about all of this so much here - to say nothing of the fact that we have thousand of customers with our tuning who get their normal 150-K-225K mile service life. Additionally, we do not "slam" the clutches as was also posted - that is a completely inappropriate statement. We *do* cause the clutch packs to be filled quicker at heavy throttle simply to reduce slippage at high power levels, and as anyone knows, our shift firmness levels are very linear to properly protect the transmission as rpms and power levels rise, so that the higher the rpms or power, the quicker it executes it's shifts, to properly PROTECT those friction materials. Remember, HEAT is the number 1 enemy of the automatic transmission, not firmer shifts - anyone who knows automatic transmissions knows this all too well. Reducing slippage under load reduces heat buildup, and we take measures to reduce slippage on both the tranny itself as well as the torque converter, and as a result, they feel better, respond better, and last longer as long as they are not abused by someone trying to play "Ricky Bobby" NASCAR driver.

So I just wanted to make some clarification there, along with thanking Chester for that first post in which he made some great explanations - thanks!

 

I wasn't trying to insinuate that it would harm the truck, I was merely stating that from a mechanical standpoint, it increases wear on certian parts of the truck. Obviously, the parts are *able* to withstand the added horsepower and torque, but a consequence of increasing horsepower (and rpms), is increasing wear.(not breaking it) The same goes for the guy that drives like a maniac. His truck will wear out faster than the guy that drives like a grandpa. If you keep your foot out of it,(except for occasionally) then I'll have to agree with Troyer and say that it probably won't hurt it. And from the clutch's standpoint, it may even help prolong its life.

Point being, I'm not gonna take my tuner out!

 

First post so be gentle I have been contemplating a tuner for my truck for awhile now and couldn't decide between the Edge or the XCal2 untill I joined this community and read all the posts about the two paying close attention to Mike Troyers replies and those sealed the deal.

Im sure ill get the best bang for my buck going with his custom tune rather then one off the shelf. Now if I can just remember wich 3 tunes I took?

Crystal, HELP!

 

I actually brought my F-150 in right away-noticing the lag. The mechanic thought I was crazy, thus making us all crazy. I am convinced. Just let us little guys know when there is a group buy again.

 

Hi Guys,

First, for Chester - thanks for your response. The point I made is still operative, as there is no harm or increased wear in these vehicles running them as we tune them - in fact, Roush put their *supercharger* kit thru Ford's durability & service life testing, and found no loss of service life or durability in the powertrain as a whole when using that supercharger, hence it's included 36/36 powertrain warranty - so there certainly isn't any determent in our tuning for these engines, nor does it hurt them to do the occasional 5200-5400 rpm full-throttle burst, or towing a load at WOT @ 4800 in 2nd gear up the side of a mountain - these trucks are *built* for that. Additionally, the factory rev limiter is at or beyond where we set the upshift points anyway, so there's nothing new there - that's my point, that there is no detriment whatsoever to using our tuning, and people reading your original post on that could potentially have gotten that impression (you know how the Internet can be) - hence my response to point out the actual facts. As you & I have both said, it's absolutely true that you can take a bone-stock vehicle and drive it like a race car and thus shorten certain aspects of it's service life - but driven with any semblance of sanity, our tuning does not shorten any aspects of it's service life or durability, and neither does the Roush supercharger. Roush spent more time than any other blower mfg by far on their kit for these trucks, taking it thru all of Ford's punishing durability testing to insure that. There is a fair amount of over-engineering in these vehicles, and as a professional modifier of these vehicles, we also have to know what the weak links are, and what can and cannot be done without affecting normal service life. Thanks for your comments in this regard.

For Whoodatt - Welcome to F-150 Online! If you are not sure of which 3 tunes you selected and would like to go over that, please give us a call - or shoot us an email with your name & phone number so we can call you - so that we can go over that with you if you are unsure, OK? We're happy to help in that regard, & thanks very much for your faith in our product, it's greatly appreciated!

For DataAve - your complaint echos that of virtually all 2004 & up F-150 owners, the lack of throttle response due to the ETC system, which we can easily take care of. There will not be a Group Buy on our custom tuning again any time soon, just FYI - if ever, as it's very problematic doing that on true custom tuning. We are still regretting doing it for the very first time! We are working on a system to make this go much smoother if we ever do that again. I did have one thought, and that is, if your vehicle is bone stock, or does not have an intake kit on it, we are right now doing a combo deal for intake & exhaust that basically gets you at least as good pricing on our tuning and the intake as if we did an actual Group Buy, so you just might want to take advantage of that - just give us a call, as we may find a way to make this work for you. We can easily cure that throttle response problem as well as all the other improvements we normally make, and I know how irritating it is to drive the vehicle in stock trim, so we'll try to make a deal that will work for you it at all possible - just FYI.

Thanks for your posts, everyone (and thanks once again to Chester as well!)