Mike, to be fair, you need to re-read my post. All i am saying is that my shaker kit does NOT have a positive pressure anywhere along the intake tract, especially post filter and close to the mass air sensor (or whatever it is called now).
I have yet to get a Check Engine Light with my setup which is more than i can say for some of the af1 customers. no lean conditions anywhere at any speed....

 

Hi Gobra,

Thanks for your post - OK, I did go back and re-read (though very quickly) your post - and my apologies if I misunderstood it, perhaps?

Heck, I didn't even know (or care) that you were using some kind of scoop or whatever - and I'm glad you are happy with it. As long as you feel that it is not actually causing positive air pressure to the MAF sensor, AND properly datalogging has actually been done to include proper wideband A/F's and it has been determined that it has caused no changes, then that would be fine.

Regarding your comment about what happens when running in closed loop, once again you are only partly correct. That is NOT any kind of absolute, far from it. The PCM does have strict and narrow (unless we tune it) limits to it's ability to compensate with fuel trims, and it still cannot compensate on it's on in open loop - so don't be under the impression that just because an engine is running in closed loop that it CANNOT go lean or rich - it most certainly can.

Now your crack on AF1 customers was of course, like a lot of your previous cracks, way out of line, just as you meant it to be. So I say to you that it seems that you either cannot, or simply refuse, to absorb what you have read in numerous previous posts of mine - which is that the MIL illuminates ONLY when the engine exceeds 50% of the allowable emissions limit - NOT as a rich or lean warning light. Now it can be polluting as a result of a rich or lean or any of hundreds of other conditions, but it is not a lean or rich light.

Last - and once again, as you well know - you do not see ANYONE who uses either the 3.0" AF1 or who has been properly tuned using the 3.25" AF1 throwing any such codes. The few that DID happen were on 204 trucks by and large, and that was long ago - very early on with much larger units before we got AF1 to implement the changes that we required of them, which, as virtually everyone here (including yourself, I am quite sure) knows have long sicne been dealt with. But don't let the facts deter you from any further pot shots.

 

What would a forum be without a few "pot" shots as you call them? Ive had to sit back and absorb a few as a result of the issues people have had with their Edge units!

I will just have to respectfully disagree with you on the issue of these ram air systems causing a lean condition (if the stock airbox is kept, of course). I know you have done testing on many different ram air setups but have you tested a CDC shaker on a 5.4 3v? The key to this setup is that it retains the stock airbox, which sacrifices some power. But at the same time, doesnt require any custom tuning like some of the other intakes. It may not make as much power as some of the others , but it blows the others away in "Cool" Factor. I have lost count as to how many people have nearly ran into me rubber neckin at my truck as im driving down the street. I had one young guy ask me if it had a Mach 1 engine in it! Cool factor has to count for something even if your not a "fan"!
BTW, I dont feel like i have been out of line at all (at ANY time on this forum) I also totally understand your explanations of the CEL with the AF1 and i thank you for posting it.

 

Mike, I have read a lot of your postings and agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to disagree with your view on a MAF based system not being able to compensate for the additional volume of air in a ram air type setup. In a heated wire type system, such as ours, the denser (more dense?) air is going to pull more heat from the wire. Pull more heat from it, the system has to provide more power to keep the wire temp constant, which tells the PCM that there is more air and it will add fuel accordingly. The density of the air has a direct affect on the MAF reading.

But even with the best designed system, we are really only talking 2kpa max pressure anyway, so it really isn't significant, and our MAFs can handle that extra density just fine.

 

Hi Hotwires;

I think you missed this part:

In other words, regardless of the capabilities of the raw MAF hardware itself, the stock PCM programming is *ahem* 'programmatically' restricting the range of compensation allowable. This is, I believe ( Mike, please correct me if I'm wrong) due to the fact that the entire intake tract is expected to be intact, as designed - no alterations - hence no expectation that the narrow limits imposed would be exceeded during normal operation.

Where did you derive your 2 kpa figure from?

BTW - nice screen name - very appropriate

Cheers
Grog

 

I dont think anyone expects the PCM to have unlimited ability to trim the fuel. BUT there is more than enough to compensate for things like, cams, headers,intakes etc. They have to build this in to compensate for things like altitude, load and temperature. Now if you had all of these modifications pulling a 5000 lb load in the Mojave desert, you might get in trouble.

Of course, if you have the issue with not going into open loop or a lean condition from the factory (as Mike has reported), you have other problems! A properly functioning control system has enough adjustment for most of the mods that we can throw at it. If you mess, with the air box/meter, though, you are on your own!

 

MGD - nope, I didn't miss that part. 2kpa calced from a basic formula, and it has been proven many times on the track. Actually, that is at about 120mph. At 60mph, it is less than 1kpa. And a 2kpa difference is well within the operating parameters of our MAFs. You can get more of a density change than that is driving from the mountains down to the beach.

 

Mike, (or anyone)

Refering to your comments about the IAT's, I have something that has troubled me since I put that K&N on my truck. If the ambient temp. is below 45 and I am stopped my rpm's go up 300 and sound like a can opener comes from the MAF. Should I be conserned? Nobody else that I found has the same issue.

 

I doubt very seriously that a slight or even moderate lean condition would hurt the engine, (an appreciable ammount in a relatively stock engine) but it would probably be really hard on the cats. The reality is there though, running lean does increase EGTs. Now as to what degree.... Well, I think that varies with conditions.

But if any of you fly model airplanes, you know that you must enrich the mixture slightly (especially on the smaller engines) cause they will overheat and shut off if the mixture is too lean. And they are 2 cycle alcohol engines. So the potential is there..... But the fact of the matter is, I've never heard of anyone breaking a 5.4 because it was running lean. That is, a relatively stock 5.4...... And I broke my cats, and it wasn't running lean so.....

Maybe Mr. Troyer can inform us more if he gets a chance. He has probably seen it if it has happened.

 

Maybe not too many stock ones but if you go to the Lightning forum you will read all the horror stories of lean condition engine damage.

 

Supercharged <> NA

Supercharged is A LOT more sensitive to AFR than NA. Under boost, you want to be way on the rich side - even stoich will cause engine damage under boost.

 

So I am planning to purchase the JLT intake kit for my f150 2004 fx4. Doesn't sound like much of an issue to me other than opinions and lots of figures say to get this or get that.

 

you can't datalog street info on a dyno, hence the reason for the ability to datalog...


so many people hump the idea of a dyno tune, and once a vehicle is dyno tuned any tuner worth while will take the vehicle for some street / track time and get the tune dialed in

 

there's threads on here where three-valve 5.4's have run lean with the addition of an aftermarket intake and no tune

 

thanks for using the search feature, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CUSTOM TUNE you better start motor shopping now