programer & ethenol in gas
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Joined: May 2004
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From: Sunny FL
As long as the octane rating is what the tune calls for you’ll be OK. There’s a thread floating around this forum somewhere on the subject; if I find it, I’ll post it up
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EDIT - here's the thread I was looking for - Local Octanes...
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EDIT - here's the thread I was looking for - Local Octanes...
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
(Snip
the answer many of you are looking for is NO, your do NOT need tuning changes - your PCM will be able to keep up with this change no problem, the 10% ethanol-blended fuels have about a 14.2:1 stoich point and the O2 sensors will automatically start switching there instead.
The main thing is that you simply lose a little bit of peak power and fuel mileage due to the lower BTU content of the portion of the fuel that is ethanol.
And by the way - for many years now, it has been a *requirement* that the fuel systems of all vehicles here in the US be able to run on a 10% ethanol mixture - yes, alcohol-based fuels are indeed more corrosive, and they have about half the BTU content of "normal" gasoline - but they also have a high octane number, and if tuned for to the nth degree, we could get a 20% power gain from it - why do you think Indy cars run on methanol?
So all of you can rest regarding is it OK to run your custom tuning on 10% ethanol blends, you've been doing it for years & years already, every winter - you just don't make quite as much power or get quite as good fuel economy, basically.
I hope that helps,
the answer many of you are looking for is NO, your do NOT need tuning changes - your PCM will be able to keep up with this change no problem, the 10% ethanol-blended fuels have about a 14.2:1 stoich point and the O2 sensors will automatically start switching there instead.
The main thing is that you simply lose a little bit of peak power and fuel mileage due to the lower BTU content of the portion of the fuel that is ethanol.
And by the way - for many years now, it has been a *requirement* that the fuel systems of all vehicles here in the US be able to run on a 10% ethanol mixture - yes, alcohol-based fuels are indeed more corrosive, and they have about half the BTU content of "normal" gasoline - but they also have a high octane number, and if tuned for to the nth degree, we could get a 20% power gain from it - why do you think Indy cars run on methanol?
So all of you can rest regarding is it OK to run your custom tuning on 10% ethanol blends, you've been doing it for years & years already, every winter - you just don't make quite as much power or get quite as good fuel economy, basically.
I hope that helps,
Last edited by jpdadeo; Jul 7, 2006 at 05:56 PM.
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
By law, your vehicle has to be compatible with ethanol-blended fuels, but ONLY up to a maximum of 10% ethanol by volume - which is what we used to call "gasahol" and is what you basically find at the ethanol-blended fuel pumps (aside from the few locations that have E-85, which will be very clearly identified). So no, you do not need to worry about it with the 1745 unit you are using as we know exaclty what's in that tuning.
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From: Virginia
Just to expand on that a bit - if someone were running anything more than 10% ethanol, then to be able to do that, not only would the fuel system have to be changed so that the fuel pumps, lines, injectors, regulator, etc., would not fail with the high caustic rate of alcohol-based fuels, but the new stoich ratio of the fuel blend would have to be determined - and *then* it could be tuned for.
It is true that the higher % of alcohol-based fuel you use, the leaner the engine runs - but all vehicles have to be compatible with "gasohol," meaning up to 10% ethanol by volume.
It is true that the higher % of alcohol-based fuel you use, the leaner the engine runs - but all vehicles have to be compatible with "gasohol," meaning up to 10% ethanol by volume.
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Mt ?
MT - if I understand correctly (which may be a stretch) if I have a flex-fuel engine it would not be as likely to have a lean condition, just by virture of being E-85 compatible? Are your tunes drastically different than those from a non flex-fuel engine? Are the power outputs obtained from the two engines basically the same after you tune them?
Last edited by zx200driver; Jul 13, 2006 at 02:28 PM.
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
If it's a flex-fuel vehicle, then you can run on E-85, E-10, or "straight" pump gasoline - you still really shouldn't do mixing on your own, would be my advice.
Now as to us tuning the flex-fuel vehicles, we do have to do more work as there are additional tables, but we can tune them just fine and get at least as good results.
Now as to us tuning the flex-fuel vehicles, we do have to do more work as there are additional tables, but we can tune them just fine and get at least as good results.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 229
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From: Northern Illinois
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
Just to expand on that a bit - if someone were running anything more than 10% ethanol, then to be able to do that, not only would the fuel system have to be changed so that the fuel pumps, lines, injectors, regulator, etc., would not fail with the high caustic rate of alcohol-based fuels, but the new stoich ratio of the fuel blend would have to be determined - and *then* it could be tuned for.
It is true that the higher % of alcohol-based fuel you use, the leaner the engine runs - but all vehicles have to be compatible with "gasohol," meaning up to 10% ethanol by volume.
It is true that the higher % of alcohol-based fuel you use, the leaner the engine runs - but all vehicles have to be compatible with "gasohol," meaning up to 10% ethanol by volume.
In fact, the only real tuning change required to adapt these trucks to run on E85 is to increase fuel pump voltage and fuel pressure. There is no need to make any other changes at all unless you are seeking additional performance.
And... it is not true that the higher percentage of alcohol causes these trucks to run lean. They have a huge adaptive capability. The PCM quickly learns it needs to add more fuel and does so up to 25%. Look at your scalars, you will see the range.
Under heavy load and high RPMs; however, the truck will trend lean after 4000 RPMs and continue until you pass each shift point. At 3500 and WOT, you will not run lean while burning E85 Ethanol with a factory gas tune.
To correct this leaning trend, simply add voltage to the fuel pump at the right pressure level and add pressure across the injectors in your tune.
Please please please do the research before you make statements. You are well respected so being accurate in your statements is very important.
Last edited by tschaid; Jul 17, 2006 at 10:49 AM.
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From: Vienna, Georgia
Originally Posted by tschaid
In fact, the only real tuning change required to adapt these trucks to run on E85 is to increase fuel pump voltage and fuel pressure. There is no need to make any other changes at all unless you are seeking additional performance.
And... it is not true that the higher percentage of alcohol causes these trucks to run lean. They have a huge adaptive capability. The PCM quickly learns it needs to add more fuel and does so up to 25%. Look at your scalars, you will see the range.
Under heavy load and high RPMs; however, the truck will trend lean after 4000 RPMs and continue until you pass each shift point. At 3500 and WOT, you will not run lean while burning E85 Ethanol with a factory gas tune.
To correct this leaning trend, simply add voltage to the fuel pump at the right pressure level and add pressure across the injectors in your tune.
And... it is not true that the higher percentage of alcohol causes these trucks to run lean. They have a huge adaptive capability. The PCM quickly learns it needs to add more fuel and does so up to 25%. Look at your scalars, you will see the range.
Under heavy load and high RPMs; however, the truck will trend lean after 4000 RPMs and continue until you pass each shift point. At 3500 and WOT, you will not run lean while burning E85 Ethanol with a factory gas tune.
To correct this leaning trend, simply add voltage to the fuel pump at the right pressure level and add pressure across the injectors in your tune.
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Tshaid,
You have presented so many different stories on your truck that nobody pays any attention to you - at least, nobody with a brain who is actually keeping track of what you claim. What absolute horse-hockey - here's a link for you to refresh your memory of your multiple stories: https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=238490
Here's a quote where you claimed that all the spark plug tips were burnt off fro that same thread:
"Yesterday, armed with a TSB 06-3-3 Spark Knock along with P0300 & P0316, I met the Service Director when at 07:30 AM. The tech had already pulled my truck in and was beginning to work on it. I spent the next hour reviewing next steps. I went through Quintin's recommendations along with the TSB above. We then began examining other symptoms. I left an hour later. At 05:00 Pm, I was back and learned that the root cause of the P0300 & the P0316 was burned down tips on all of my spark plugs. What? How could all of the spark plugs be burned down after only 17,000 miles. Some of you may remember, mine was the truck that had the spark plugs broken off in the heads requiring an Engine tear down."
But then, later in that very same thread, you then claim:
"The oil in the truck was Royal Purple with a high flash point. Looks like cylinder head temps were around 500 degrees. It's a long story; but, root cause was a dyno run with no air flow (electric fans were not working) and very high engine temps."
Next we have later in this same thread:
(Originally Posted by expy03)
So who was sitting behind the wheel and let the engine temps get so hi during the dyno run? You have a real nice hot rod there, I'd be having someones lunch if that was my truck. But thanks anyway for sharing the outcome. Always glad to hear it's not the truck, but operator error, like in this case.
Your response:
"I was. Remember, the idiot light showing engine temp on the dash will never show hot in many of these trucks. It simply does not function."
Yep, your credibility is aces with me.
Funny how in thousands of dyno pulls, drag strip sessions, etc., I've never seen any problem with the dashboard temperature gauge failing to show an overheating condition of the engins coolant - to say nothing of the fact that you have a failsafe cooling system on that engine, so the PCM would have dropped cylinders immediately upon the engine's COOLANT actually overheating. But now it's because the temperature sensor doesn't work. Right. And I guess the failsafe cooling system failed, too, right? Because of course, none of them work, either.
By the way - one of the owners of SCT who you were blabbing off to over on those boards didn't think much of you trying to tell him all about what you don't know about these vehicles, either. That really wasn't very smart to try to tell them what was what.
I also loved your side-shifting to yet another story in that same thread when you were asked to post photos of your spark plugs (which of course you never did, not that it would matter at this point, but you DID once again completely change your story, interestingly), in this response:
"I'll get them from the dealer; but, I looked at the plugs and they have a reasonable brown color. I expected to see white; but, didn't. The gaps were out at .055 on the ones we checked."
Gee, what happened to the "root cause of the P0300 & the P0316 was burned down tips on all of my spark plugs" or this one: "Spark Plugs were burned up. Oil was burned as well. The oil in the truck was Royal Purple with a high flash point. Looks like cylinder head temps were around 500 degrees. It's a long story; but, root cause was a dyno run with no air flow (electric fans were not working) and very high engine temps."
This of course, after you telling me on the phone that Royal Purple had a much LOWER thermal breakdown point compared to Mobil 1 - but I don't suppose you remember that claim, either, right? Or any of the numerous other things you were going to do but never did.
Keep right on thinking that you can do what you are doing, I don't care what you do to your truck - but don't you try to attack me or correct me, as you simply are not qualified.
Last - I really hate those few occasions when I finally have to tell someone what's what - it's unprofessional and upsetting - but this has been coming for a very long time and you should have been straightened out a long time ago - instead, I refrained as I do try to be a gentleman, but you have managed to destroy even that with your big mouth & multiple conflicting claims, etc. Hence this long overdue response, which, for the rest of the forum, I do indeed apologize.
You have presented so many different stories on your truck that nobody pays any attention to you - at least, nobody with a brain who is actually keeping track of what you claim. What absolute horse-hockey - here's a link for you to refresh your memory of your multiple stories: https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=238490
Here's a quote where you claimed that all the spark plug tips were burnt off fro that same thread:
"Yesterday, armed with a TSB 06-3-3 Spark Knock along with P0300 & P0316, I met the Service Director when at 07:30 AM. The tech had already pulled my truck in and was beginning to work on it. I spent the next hour reviewing next steps. I went through Quintin's recommendations along with the TSB above. We then began examining other symptoms. I left an hour later. At 05:00 Pm, I was back and learned that the root cause of the P0300 & the P0316 was burned down tips on all of my spark plugs. What? How could all of the spark plugs be burned down after only 17,000 miles. Some of you may remember, mine was the truck that had the spark plugs broken off in the heads requiring an Engine tear down."
But then, later in that very same thread, you then claim:
"The oil in the truck was Royal Purple with a high flash point. Looks like cylinder head temps were around 500 degrees. It's a long story; but, root cause was a dyno run with no air flow (electric fans were not working) and very high engine temps."
Next we have later in this same thread:
(Originally Posted by expy03)
So who was sitting behind the wheel and let the engine temps get so hi during the dyno run? You have a real nice hot rod there, I'd be having someones lunch if that was my truck. But thanks anyway for sharing the outcome. Always glad to hear it's not the truck, but operator error, like in this case.
Your response:
"I was. Remember, the idiot light showing engine temp on the dash will never show hot in many of these trucks. It simply does not function."
Yep, your credibility is aces with me.
Funny how in thousands of dyno pulls, drag strip sessions, etc., I've never seen any problem with the dashboard temperature gauge failing to show an overheating condition of the engins coolant - to say nothing of the fact that you have a failsafe cooling system on that engine, so the PCM would have dropped cylinders immediately upon the engine's COOLANT actually overheating. But now it's because the temperature sensor doesn't work. Right. And I guess the failsafe cooling system failed, too, right? Because of course, none of them work, either.
By the way - one of the owners of SCT who you were blabbing off to over on those boards didn't think much of you trying to tell him all about what you don't know about these vehicles, either. That really wasn't very smart to try to tell them what was what.
I also loved your side-shifting to yet another story in that same thread when you were asked to post photos of your spark plugs (which of course you never did, not that it would matter at this point, but you DID once again completely change your story, interestingly), in this response:
"I'll get them from the dealer; but, I looked at the plugs and they have a reasonable brown color. I expected to see white; but, didn't. The gaps were out at .055 on the ones we checked."
Gee, what happened to the "root cause of the P0300 & the P0316 was burned down tips on all of my spark plugs" or this one: "Spark Plugs were burned up. Oil was burned as well. The oil in the truck was Royal Purple with a high flash point. Looks like cylinder head temps were around 500 degrees. It's a long story; but, root cause was a dyno run with no air flow (electric fans were not working) and very high engine temps."
This of course, after you telling me on the phone that Royal Purple had a much LOWER thermal breakdown point compared to Mobil 1 - but I don't suppose you remember that claim, either, right? Or any of the numerous other things you were going to do but never did.
Keep right on thinking that you can do what you are doing, I don't care what you do to your truck - but don't you try to attack me or correct me, as you simply are not qualified.
Last - I really hate those few occasions when I finally have to tell someone what's what - it's unprofessional and upsetting - but this has been coming for a very long time and you should have been straightened out a long time ago - instead, I refrained as I do try to be a gentleman, but you have managed to destroy even that with your big mouth & multiple conflicting claims, etc. Hence this long overdue response, which, for the rest of the forum, I do indeed apologize.
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Well Tshaid you have the ***** to do something that only a few ppl have done...If you are getting the results that you want without causing any damage to your truck then good for you...If ppl say you cant do it then prove them wrong...there are some on this forum who believe that there never wrong even if you prove it to them with hard facts
Im sure your going threw a learning curve and you will have ups and downs and one day you will have it nailed down...
I know of a few guys who have tuned for flex fuel and they are having great results also
Im sure your going threw a learning curve and you will have ups and downs and one day you will have it nailed down...
I know of a few guys who have tuned for flex fuel and they are having great results also
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,803
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From: North Canton, Ohio
Then please explain to me why an '04 and the '06 have different O2 sensors, with the '04 requiring a 13117, and the '06 FFV a 15664. Not only that , but the fuel pump on the '06 FFV also carries a different part number. 